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Username Post: NHL Top 20 All-time thread
ILB
superstar
Posts 4274
ILB
08-09-04 06:35 PM - Post#303764    

I know that this has probably been done a thousand times here on FC, and if I am out of line, Mods please feel free to delete this thread. The question that I am posing to the FC faithful is what does your top 20 all-time fighters list look like? Who do you rate where? And why? I would really like to see a top 20 list from the Vets here, and see what guys they think deserve to be named the top 20 fighters of all time. Here is my list, feel free to criticize:

*** Please note that this list is subject to change. I haven't seen EVERY fight that each guy was in, and in some cases I am relying on reputation.... I'd like to think that this is a pretty accurate list though ***

1) Bob Probert
2) Behn Wilson
3) Dave Brown
4) John Ferguson (Pure rep here... I haven't seen enough but the stories are LEGENDARY. I've really only heard of a couple of losses ever on this guy)
5A) Bob Nystrom and
5B) Clark Gillies (I can't put one guy over the other)
6) Larry Playfair
7) Marty McSorely
8) Nick Fotiu
9) John Wensink
10) Tim Hunter

11 - 20:

11) Dave Semenko
12) Glen Cochrane
13) John Kordic
14) Dan Maloney
15) Tie Domi
16) Chris Nilan
17) Stan Jonathan
18) Craig Berube
19) Dave "The Hammer" Schultz
20) Terry O'Reilly


Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda Contenders:

1) Bob Gassoff - In the short time that this guy played in the NHL he was simply devastating. He would have easily been one of the best of ALL TIME if he hadn't died in a tragic accident. Some might still have him in their top 10 for his sheer dominance when he did fight.

2) Link Gaetz - Had all the talent in the world but was too much of a nut job. The Car accident that he was in didn't help him any either...

3) Troy Crowder - Dominated for a very short period of time. Has a clean victory over Probie in Probie's prime, but of course the champ avenged that loss... if he hadn't been injured and forced out of the league.... who knows?

4) Dave Richter - A 6'5 Lefty with a nasty streak that could really fight. It could be argued that Richter never really lost in his short NHL tenure, but I think he was at least "edged" (I hate using edges) in a couple of fights. He had the size and the mean streak, along with the fighting ability to be one of the best.... he just didn't stick in the show.

5) Mario and Serge Roberge - these 2 minor league legends simply arrived in the NHL at the wrong time. The Habs were full at the enforcer position and couldn't use both of them, (Serge was the better fighter) and they quickly got rid of Mario. Dissapointing because they are legends in the minors.

So there it is... my top 20... what do the folks on FC think?
chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-09-04 06:55 PM - Post#303778    

I'll bite. This is based off what I have seen.

1. Probert
2. D. Brown
3. Fotiu
4. Wilson
5. Gillies
6. Kocur(not sure if you forgot him or what, Boobs?)
7. O'Reily
8. Playfair
9. McSorley
10. Nystrom
11. Jonathan
12. Richter
13. Miller
14. Domi
15. Cochrane
16. Wensink
17. Hunter
18. Semenko
19. J. Kordic
20. Howatt

Honorable Mention:

Berube
Grimson
Twist
Nilan
Williams
Shultz
Bridgeman
Holmgren
Cashman

I have not seen enough(I don't think anyone really has) of Gassoff, Ferguson, Dan Maloney or Battleship Kelly to give them a spot even though they all could be top 10 guys.
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

Hike
Veteran
Posts 6937
08-09-04 07:46 PM - Post#303795    

1. Wilson - The total package. He had all the tools. Big, strong, great technical skills, and power. Put that together with his mean disposition and you get one helluva fighter. One knock on Wilson - he was a bit of a selfish fighter and usually fought for himself and not to defend his teammates.

2. Probert - What can you say. His record for longevity as a top notch heavyweight just ain't likely to be matched. Kept trying to the bitter end. Another guy that had all the tools and used them. If there is any knock on Probert it may be his punching power. While it wasn't bad, imagine what he'd have been like with the KO power of a Kocur.

3. Fotiu - He made an immediate impact by beating Holmgren and then Wilson. Brought instant respectibility to a franchise that had previously had none. The one knock of Fotiu is that he had a very long fuse and rarely instigated trouble.

4. Brown - As big and bad as they came. Not one of my personal favorites as I always considered him a bit of a cheap fighter. Liked to get the jump, used that spandex sleeve, and liked to throw a few after the break. As much as I hated the guy, I still rank him number 4, that's how good he was LOL.

5. Gillies - When people mention hardest hitters they usually think Twist and Kocur. When I think hardest hitters, I think Gillies and Playfair (along with Twist and Kocur). No one dropped Stan Jonathan, yet Gillies did it with one well placed right. The knock, and it's big one, you never knew which Gillies you were getting. But if you ended up with the pissed off, motivated Gillies, you could be in some big trouble.

6. Playfair - Big and strong. The guy was a horse. Looked like he really enjoyed fighting, and just wanted to throw them. He took a few to give a few, and you gotta love that. Was also a great defenseman and could throw a mean check. The knock on Playfair would be that he often led with his face and was a very easy target to hit. He didn't duck too many punches. They used to call him Racoon because his eyes were always blackened.

7. Cochrane - The run was short, but damn lively. A real maniac with a huge meanstreak. Didn't lose very many during a 3 to 4 year span. Bad knees and a bad back eventually took its toll and shortened his career.

8. McSorley - One of my personal favorites. Man, he just kept going and going and going. Another guy that seemed to lack a little power, but no one was more willing than Marty.

9. Kocur - His power alone gets him in my top 10. I find him alot less impressive than others do, but fear and intimidation gets him high marks. High enough to get him in my top 10.

10. Nystrom - Not too many losses on a Nystrom card. Wins over Fotiu and Wensink ensure him a top 10 position. Threw them fast and furious. Lacked a little power which hurts him in these rankings. Imagine a fighter with Gillies power and Nystroms fury and you'd have yourself one heck of an enforcer.

11. Dave Semenko
12. Stan Jonathan
13. Paul Holmgren
14. Tim Hunter
15. John Wensink
16. Dan Maloney
17. Stu Grimson
18. Tie Domi
19. Terry O'Reilly
20. Jay Miller
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment

Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-09-04 08:05 PM - Post#303801    

I'll put my top twenty up later...(have to find it), but what's with the hard on for Richter?

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-09-04 08:46 PM - Post#303821    

I can't believe Brashear isn't in the top 5 alltime! Well, maybe I can believe it, but it's because people don't like him. The guy has been kickin' ass since 97-98, & has only a handful of losses. Love him or hate him nobody has been as dominant as Brashear, with as little respect as him. A couple of people have O'Reilly & Schultz over Brasehar? Ok, personal opinion fair enough, but Brashear has also beaten Domi more times than anyone, & has more losses than Brashear, yet Domi is higher on the list? It's not fair to compare eras but Schultz would get KO'd if he tangled with Brashear. (my opinion) Twist over Brashear? Not a chance...Too many guys left off of Twist's card for him to be a top 10er, (again, my opinion). Guys like Probert, Brown, Wilson, Gillies...true heavys in any era. Guys like Jonathan, Nystrom, Semenko & Playfair super tough, but limited footage of them in their prime. Richter was tough, but there are a lot of players he didn't fight. Hunter is a top 5 guy, along with McSorley. I believe Brashear led the league in majors in 97-98 & he did lead the league in pims with 372. Sure he's fought less as his career went on, but when he fought, he's won 98% of the time. If his style "sucks" then why can't someone beat him at it? Like I said, the main reason he isn't on someone's list, is because of who he is, & because he didn't play in the East during his prime which was 97-98-00-01.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Tommy_The_Bull
superstar
Posts 3459
Tommy_The_Bull
08-09-04 09:14 PM - Post#303837    

Doggone it boobs! I am off to an overtime shift and will not post until breakfast...

I'll start a list:
Probert
Gillies
Ferguson
Wilson
Kocur
Brown
Playfair
Semenko
McSorley
Domi
many others in many differant orders -- that was mine tonight -- could change in an hour... lol.
Duster
veteran
Posts 276
08-09-04 09:48 PM - Post#303859    

cans. reading between the lines, i think your thread is intuitive given the fact that it appears you are more interested in the vets response on why/how they put their top 20 together rather than who actually makes up their top 20. great read. pat yourself on the back for this one....

out.

duster.
chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-09-04 10:06 PM - Post#303873    

Duke, you make some valid points but you also didn't post your list.. I'm curious to see your top 20.. Maybe in the future people will have Brash in the top 10/20 but to say at this time he is top 5 is IMHO ridiculous. Who are you leaving out of the top 5 if you have Brash in it?
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-10-04 01:45 AM - Post#303934    

How is that ridiculous? Brashear has been in the NHL since 93-94, & basically a full timer since 95-96. That's 9 years + 34 games between 93-95. Who else does the guy have to fight to get recognition? He has more than triple the fight card a Fotiu or Wilson & has more wins than the two combined. People still rank Brashear for his 1st couple of seasons in Montreal. Starting in 97-98 name 1 fighter who has dominated as much with as few losses as Brashear? What's ridiculous is people's lists with players such as Ferguson, Gassoff, Maloney or Kurtenbach, guys who have a combine video capibility of no more than 10 fights combined. How can anyone honestly rank a player who has 3 fights available? (ex: Gassoff), compared to a guy who has over 100 fights or whatever Brashear has, available against pretty much every tough guy who we have seen fight other tough guys for comparison? Not to pick on Gassoff, cuz I used to live in his hometown of Quesnel, but how can anyone rank Gassoff honestly, without him fighting a Fotiu, Bert Wilson, Gillies, Holmgren, Wensink guys who played in his era? What I'm tryin' to say is how can anyone honestly rank a guy with no footage. Brashear HAS fought elite heavyweights, guys 6'4-6'5 220-245 lbs. Schultz was 6'1 195'lbs, that was considered "big", today as enforcer, that's small. That's where comparing eras comes in, & isn't fair. But since this is a "top 20" list, then all eras are considered. Take a guy like Curt Fraser, he was a boxer, & an excellent fighter, but during his Vancouver days, how many fights of his are available? How do we know he wasn't as tough as Fotiu? He probably had as many if not more fights than Fotiu. He had a reputation. He fought Wilson & lost but it was close so he must be top 5. What about Harold Snepsts? He played in the '70s. He fought & beat Schultz 3x in the same game, so he must be top 5. We have just as many prime Snepsts fights with Vancouver as we do of Gassoff, or Ferguson so he must be top 3! What about Tiger Williams with Toronto? He played in the mid 70's & how much footage of him is available? He fought a lot of guys, he beat Wilson, but I'm forgetting one thing, with the exception of Tiger, these guys played on the West Coast, not in Philly, Boston or NY.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-10-04 01:51 AM - Post#303935    

Tony, I understand what you are saying. Point taken. I still want to hear your top 10 list. Or even top 5. Who gets pushed out of the top 5 to make room for Brash? Probert? Fotiu? Brown? Wilson? Gillies? You rank Brashear higher then Kocur, O'Reily or McSorley?
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-10-04 02:00 AM - Post#303937    

How can you even compare Terry O'Reilly to Brashear or McSorley? O'Reilly was game & won some fights, but he was no top 20 fighter. Great power forward in the Cam Neely mode for a couple of seasons, but not even close to top 20!
I've always said Probert is the man. Nobody dominated for as long a period as he did, with so many victories, whether the cocaine or booze helped him, whatever, the guy was awesome!! IMO Brown is #2. He knew his job, & did it almost to perfection. Could he throw a right? Who knows, many of his fights didn't last long enough to find out. Best lefty alltime, was feared & had some big time wins! Tim Hunter is my choice for #3 alltime. Best conditioned athelete with the most stamina over anyone, could take a punch, & fought Semenko more times than anyone, & lived to talk about it. He could fight anyway you wanted, toe to toe, or tug & throw. Not many losses for Hunter during his Flame days. Very underrated because of where he played.
Paul, I'm still waiting to see who has domintated as much as Brashear with as few losses as him? Tell me?
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

HABSFAN
veteran
Posts 383
HABSFAN
08-10-04 06:29 AM - Post#303959    

My favorites are:
ANGELSTAD
BERUBE
BIALOWAS
BRASHEAR
BROWN,D
CLARK,W
COCHRANE
DONNELLY
GRIMSON
KOCUR
KORDIC,J
LAUS
MCSORLEY
MCLAREN,STEVE
NILAN
NYSTROM
PROBERT
ROBERGE,S
TWIST
WILSON,B
gulash
hall of famer
Posts 8842
gulash
08-10-04 07:49 AM - Post#303977    

I have to agree with Badduke that Tim Hunter is a top 5 and Taz who fought them all is no top 20 and i bet i saw 80% of tazes fights.Domi has to be in the top 10.Dont laugh but if Derek Sanderson played a few more years he could be in the top 20.
Hike
Veteran
Posts 6937
08-10-04 07:57 AM - Post#303981    

I don't know about Hunter being top 10, let alone top 5. I put him just outside the top 10. Other than his wars with Edmonton and his rivalry with McSorley, he didn't beat too many of the better fighters of his day. He didn't do too well with Nilan, nor Kordic. Took a bad loss to Kocur, lost to Probert, Cochrane, and Fotiu.

I realize he was young, but I just have a tough time putting a guy in the top 10 who lost a fight to Donny Maloney, LOL.
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment

Maguire19
Moderator
Posts 19237
Maguire19
08-10-04 08:18 AM - Post#303995    

Ill try based on what Ive seen.

1.Bob Probert
2.Dave Brown
3.Behn Wilson
4.Clarke Gillies
5.Nick Fotiu
6.Glen Cochrane
7.Larry Playfair
8.Tie Domi
9.Paul Holmgren
10.Bob Nystrom
11.Joey Kocur
12.Donald Brashear
13.Tim Hunter
14.John Kordic
15.Marty McSorely
16.Stu Grimson
17.John Wensink
18.Dave Semenko
19.Tony Twist
20.Stan Jonathon

HM's - OReilly,Berube,Bridgman,Howatt,Jay Miller,Laraque,Beck,
Holmgren
superstar
Posts 3204
Holmgren
08-10-04 08:35 AM - Post#304013    

It
I see Blue! . . . He looks glorious!

John_P
superstar
Posts 3647
John_P
08-10-04 08:47 AM - Post#304022    

1. Probert
2. Brown
3. Wilson
4. Gillies
5. Kocur
6. Fotiu
7. Playfair
8. Semenko
9. Nystrom
10. Cochrane
11. Hunter
12. Domi
13. O'Reilly
14. Jonathon
15. McSorley
16. Miller
17. Schultz
18. Berube
19. Ferguson
20. Maloney
"And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has, in showing that religion and gov't will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together." James Madison

dunlopyousuck
all star
Posts 1136
08-10-04 10:12 AM - Post#304089    

Off the top of my head . . . and always subject to change . . .

(1) Joey Kocur
(1) Bob Probert
(3) Dave Brown
(4) Chris Simon
(5) Bob Nystrom
(6) Stu Grimson
(7) Nick Fotiu
(8) Donald Brashear
(9) Behn Wilson
(10) Clark Gillies
(11) John Kordic
(12) Tony Twist
(13) Rob Ray
(14) Craig Berube
(15) Marty McSorley
(16) Tie Domi
(17) Sandy McCarthy
(18) Jim McKenzie
(19) Jay Miller
(20) Larry Playfair
Anonymous


08-10-04 10:20 AM - Post#304096    

I think I have to agree about Wilson, although I never liked him. I recently watched his fight tape and I didn't see him lose too many. In fact, I'm convinced if the fights went any longer or the refs didn't break them up, he probably would have won all of them. He had long arms, a powerful punch, he was mean and didn't put up with anyone's shit. I think he was a dirty player and I still don't like him, but he never quit fighting and only got better as the fight continued.

As for the ratings: I've never seen Kocur fight so I have no comments. All I hear is that he was a powerful puncher.

I don't think Jonathan could have taken O'Reilly, I know Maloney got the snot beat out of by O'Reilly on at least two occassions. O'Reilly always had his way with Holmgren.

I don't know about McSorely. He had a lot of energy but I never saw him kick someone's ass. He lost a lot of fights but you couldn't calm him down. I don't know if that puts anyone in the top 20 or not, just not sure. Jay Miller was like that as well.

Also, I think John Kordic should definately be in the mix somewhere.

I do think there is only one guy on the list who would fight anyone of these guys night after night, fight after fight to protect his teammates and that's Terry O'Reilly.
Anonymous


08-10-04 10:25 AM - Post#304106    

I also think that Mel Bridgman and Willi Plett should definately be in the list somewhere.
Hike
Veteran
Posts 6937
08-10-04 10:28 AM - Post#304110    

Quote:

I know Maloney got the snot beat out of by O'Reilly on at least two occassions.




Not when Maloney was in L.A. Maloney owned O'Reilly and beat him at least twice and one of them was a thorough ass kicking.
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment

Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
08-10-04 10:40 AM - Post#304125    

I'll always chime into a top 10 or 20 talk anytime! For me this is the funnest topic to talk about because it's so subjective.

What's great is that there's many factors/ways to make "top lists". Is longevity a factor? Is it just fight card? Division/conference? Era? etc. This is what makes it so subjective!

I rank on how I feel a guy in his prime will do on other guys in their prime. I don't discount a SJ Brown, Devil/Wing Bridgman, Chicago Cochrane or a Buffalo Gillies. That's my choice. No one can deny Probert wouldn't destroy a Nazorov in 1987 or that Bridgman would lose twice as a Flyer to Alan Kerr. That's my subjective opinions as to how I rank.

My point for chiming in is to debate Badduke's top 5 ranking of Brashear. Before going further I know and respect Badduke as a trader and poster, so it's nothing personal.

Badduke:
1) Are you ranking him for him NOW or his Canuck days, or overall.
2) How do you rank? If you choose best fight seasons at number one then he's legit. From 98-99 to 2001-02 he was top 2 no doubt! Before continuing, I will say theres a weaker competition since the mid 90's to present than any era.
3) How do you think he'd do head to head in multi-fights against Fotiu, Bridgman, Wilson, Brown, Probert, etc.
4) Why do you put him so high over others?

A good summer debate this will be guys.

GOON 21
superstar
Posts 2784
GOON 21
08-10-04 01:09 PM - Post#304249    

Il try to post a list later, but i have to ask a question about someone on the list ~~~~~~ Jay Miller? top 20 how? i dont see it, ok he had a nice 5 year run or so, but was NEVER the champ, had no power, and was pretty bad the last year or 2 in LA, Noooooooooo flaming but im curious why some would put him top 20 ALL TIME? i just dont see it.. (honestly)
Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-10-04 01:34 PM - Post#304265    

Well, to start, he holds victories over Kordic, Brown, and Probert.

Holmgren
superstar
Posts 3204
Holmgren
08-10-04 01:37 PM - Post#304272    

Jay Miller was just a shell of himself in LA. During his Boston years he was damn good, with victories over the above mentions guys. Had some great battles with Brown, who was in his prime then and some may consider the best ever.
I see Blue! . . . He looks glorious!

Kramer
Moderator
Posts 36390
Kramer
08-10-04 01:51 PM - Post#304281    

Just for fun, and it was probably slightly different the last time we did this.

Probert
Wilson
Gillies
Brown
Fotiu
Nystrom
Playfair
Semenko
Domi
Kordic

McSorley
Maloney
Kocur
Jonathan
Miller
Hunter
Wensink
O'Reilly
Schultz
Brashear

I can't list Ferguson, he's at the cutoff of my time frame to accurately list and debate players. From everything said, he was the real deal, and arguably the first real enforcer. Gordie Howe should get mention as should Bob Gassoff, but without footage, history, etc. it's tough to list these 3 players. Brashear is the newest installment in my list. His dominance has been overwhelming. Love him or hate him, he's been the man the past several years.
"Now, now, lay off Detroit. Them people is living in 'Mad Max' times." -Moe Syzlak

RIP To The King - Bob Probert 1965-2010

GOON 21
superstar
Posts 2784
GOON 21
08-10-04 02:14 PM - Post#304310    

Maybe so but i think there are guys who played during that era (the 1980's - early 90's) who were better than Jay Miller, i very well might be wrong but *some* rip other fighters for style/wins/etc and i say ok if thats true then throw Jay Miller into the mix..

Did he have BIG TKO's wins etc? lots of entertaining fights, great team enforcer, good guy BUT top 20 ALL time? Personally i think its a stretch...

Top 20 guys are guys who i think were dominant, top 3 fighters, had a long career and were possible threats to the crown/champ and i dont see how Jay Miller fits the bill..
Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-10-04 02:34 PM - Post#304332    

Goon, you don't think a guy who beat Kordic, Prober and Brown is a threat to the throne?

Kramer
Moderator
Posts 36390
Kramer
08-10-04 02:38 PM - Post#304337    

Wasn't he beating Kocur too, until Joey landed a rare left? Jay could hang/go anyone in that timeframe.
"Now, now, lay off Detroit. Them people is living in 'Mad Max' times." -Moe Syzlak

RIP To The King - Bob Probert 1965-2010

Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
08-10-04 02:45 PM - Post#304343    

Quote:

Maybe so but i think there are guys who played during that era (the 1980's - early 90's) who were better than Jay Miller, i very well might be wrong but *some* rip other fighters for style/wins/etc and i say ok if thats true then throw Jay Miller into the mix..

Did he have BIG TKO's wins etc? lots of entertaining fights, great team enforcer, good guy BUT top 20 ALL time? Personally i think its a stretch...

Top 20 guys are guys who i think were dominant, top 3 fighters, had a long career and were possible threats to the crown/champ and i dont see how Jay Miller fits the bill..




Goon, are you aware of the official FC all time top 10?
GOON 21
superstar
Posts 2784
GOON 21
08-10-04 04:59 PM - Post#304441    

1st off i dont want to "hijack thread" (maybe ill start one on Jay Miller) but a couple quick pointers..

Posux - i have to ask bro, what was his lifetime record TOTAL against those 3 guys? (.500 at best? 20 or so career fights? ) It also can be made that its actually under .500 against those 3!!, Kordic and he always had close battles, when Dave Brown would beat J he would beat him fairly cleanly/ez! ~~~~ Can someone give details on his fight(s) against Probert?

Kramer - exactly the point, maybe he was winning but Kocur SMOKED him with a "left" and down goes Miller, case closed guys he lost that fight..

Bruins29 - I dont want to sound like a pompous/ass type but NO WAY is Jay Miller top 10 all time, NO WAY!!


Just look at the list on that top 10 all timers and they brought something that Jay Miller NEVER-EVER brought imo to the table, fear + intimadation! Look at those list on "most top 10's" and almost all of em bring a fear/intimadation element that im sorry to say Jay Miller did not bring!

Behn Wilson? - lethal
Dave Brown? - fearless, scary + sometimes dirty
Clark Gillies? - sleeping giant, dont wake up
Nick Fotiu? - brought respect to NYR and got it from philly!
Bobby Nystrom? - fierce madman!
Dave Semenko? - young Semenko watch out!

You can even bring up guys like Joey Kocur or Tony Twist and there punching power and how people avoided that power at all cost, did anyone ever "FEAR" Jay Miller?
Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-10-04 05:09 PM - Post#304446    

Goon: I don't have my tapes in front of me, but going below 500 against those three is not a negative. Those three are three of the best to ever do it.

His series with Kordic is close to even. I believe he beat Brown twice. I only know of the win against Probert. Not sure about other times they've fought.

He beat on Nilan twice as well.

Yeah, Nystrom and Fotiu were intimidating, but what TKOs and KOs do they have to their name?

Miller was a madman at times as well....witiness him giving the finger to the other team's bench after winning a fight.

He also DRILLED Coxe in their bout...an great TKO.

the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-10-04 07:38 PM - Post#304521    

1. probert - consensus pick amongst his opponents makes me a believer too. his fight card is a masterpiece with most losses being avenged during his prime. a great 2 handed fighter with a solid understanding of his role. probert was never a liability on the ice either, taking a regular shift and yet fighting all comers. i also respect probert for being willing to take on the young no-names who always wanted to test him. his sweater was a tad loose and he lacked some in comparative punching power, but with all those great fights over his career, he's earned a pass on those counts.

2. wilson - i personally feel he was a significantly tougher one-on-one opponent than probert when wilson was on the prowl and looking to go. an unequalled combination of power, chin, balance and mean disposition - behn had it all when his health was at it's best. there is not one former enforcer who ever played against this guy that wasn't scared shitless of him if he lost his temper. he fought the best of his era (many of which multiple times in a truly great era of hockey enforcers), and his losses are like hen's teeth. this guy was rock solid on his skates and combined it with one of the hardest hitting right hands in history. you could not hurt behn wilson. more career fights would have cemented him as #1 imo.

3. brown - a true enforcer who scared just as many as behn wilson. and for good reason - brown looked to bust up his opponent and had fun doing it. he didn't care how he had to do it - just do it. he's known for his powerful left hand and his great reach, but brownie was a smarter technical fighter than most give him credit for. some of his losses are memorable, but his great wins are more so.

4. gillies - i have hard time knowing where jethro fits, because of his jekyll and hyde disposition. what i do know is that this was one dangerous motherfucker when the mood came over him to hurt somebody. some around here call it over-hype. not true. he scared even the toughest enforcers -the guys that didn't scare. i am certain this factor weighed heavily on his somewhat inactive fight card. not many guys could rival his punching power - regardless of era. had the mean streak been a tad wider, the list of broken bones and destruction would have been much longer than it already was. as i said, i have a hard time knowing where he fits up here, but i personally believe his reputation was fully justified - i've seen enough and heard enough to make that call. he therefore gets the #4 slot, despite a shallow fight card.

5. playfair - great reach and a powerful puncher who loved the toe-2-toers and broke more than his share of jaws and noses in doing it. another guy who many just chose to stay clear of. the only knock i have on larry was his indifference at times. other than that, he was a helluva fighter and a consensus top10 fighter regardless of who you ask. i rate him a top5er.

6. fotiu - nicky's losses seem to get their share of ink (most of which were way out of his prime), but not many were better than nicky when the big fight was on the line. equally adept with either hand and a damn good chin - nicky was as smart a hockey fighter as this game has seen. he was also a fair fighter - almost to a fault. what he lacked in pure punching power was more than made up for with his punching accuracy and well-above average hand speed - with either hand. i sincerely believe that fotiu was a guy that needed to fight mad or his skills were significantly compromised. and when he fought mad, he was near unbeatable imo.

7. nystrom - i have huge respect for this guy. his primetime fights are some of the best fights on record and rarely did bobby lose. and some of those wins are against the best ever. a great team fighter whose hand speed and chin is legendary. another guy who took a regular shift and fought to win every time.

8. jonathan - the only 5'8"(generous) fighter in NHL history to truly carry the reputation of a heavyweight fighter - and deservedly maintained it. stanley was a fighter's fighter - solid punching power in either hand, a rock solid chin (suffering no KOs and just one flash knock-down in his career), great balance, and a willing desire to trade punches and fight anybody - regardless of what he gave up in weight, reach and height. while guys like garry howatt (a very good fighter in his own right) were getting thrown around by wilson and holmgren, stan was beating them - and smiling after the fights. only 1 or 2 losses in well over 80 fights is a record that's hard to beat. the fact that he usually gave up a ton of size, makes it even more so.

9. cochrane - a very tough fighter, who made an immediate impact when he came into the league with philly (on an already stacked team). cochrane had above average punching power and a killer instinct like few others. he loses ranking because of his shirtless endeavors, but makes it back considering how well he fought despite fighting through nagging injuries a good part of his career. in many ways, he was the early 80s version of bobby gassoff.

10. kocur - the detroit/healthy version of joey kocur is a picture of power and destruction. although some of the opponents are less than stellar, kocur easily defines himself as one of the premiere punchers and KO artists in league history. in fact, i'm still surprised he got as many fights as he did back then. had kocur been able to save his hands and telegraph his punches a little less, there is no telling how long the list of fallen victims would have been. my knock on kocur is that his defense and chin was somewhat questionable. but with a RH weapon like he had in his early days, it was rarely needed.

11. mcsorley - a solid fighter and a helluva enforcer - unparallelled stamina gets him close to the top10

12. holmgren - i agree with those that feel paul is underrated by this board. he had his moments of playing/fighting dirty, but holmgren was one tough/mean sumbitch in his prime.

13. t. hunter - the best tactical fighter in league history.

14. semenko - his record of big wins often gets overlooked - but it shouldn't be. the consummate enforcer of the late 70s/early 80s - that was dave semenko.

15. domi - i've never been fond of his predictable fight style, but when you look at his career and what he's accomplished as an enforcer, he has to be considered in the upper-echelon of fighters all-time. might have the best chin too.

16. ferguson - the first enforcer - fergie defined the role and defined it well. this is a guy who patrolled an unwatered down league of some very tough and game fighters and was widely acknowledged as the league champ for 5 -6 years straight.

17. berube
18. gassoff
19. brashear
20. twist

HM - oreilly, wensink, beck, richter, fraser, miller, schultz, secord, laus

notable omissions:

j. kordic - the most overrated fighter on this board imo.

mccarthy - i keep trying to remember when he was a calgary flame.
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-10-04 07:47 PM - Post#304526    

Bulldog, quick question. I see you mentioned Laus, would you rate him higher then Simon all time?
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

Anonymous


08-10-04 07:49 PM - Post#304527    

O'Reilly got beat one time by Maloney. I have a television interview of O'Reilly talking about the fight. It was after he hit Butch Goring on clean check. Maloney skate over to O'Reilly. O'Reilly didn't know his intention was to fight and even leaned in towards Maloney to hear what he was saying. Maloney hit him in the nose and O'Reilly couldn't see. Maloney did kick his ass and he readily admitted it.
Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-10-04 07:57 PM - Post#304532    

NickyV, I have a few considerations when I do my rankings. To me, the enforcer's fight card & an enforcer's win/loss % are the two most important considerations when ranking a player. The more opponents on the card, the more impressive that can be. Guys like Domi, McSorley, Nilan & Probert probably have the most impressive fight cards. They've pretty much fought all other heavyweights, lightweights etc..
To me, what "could have been" is a waste of time, because I think facts are more important than what never was.
Also, I truely beleive where a player plays in his prime should not be a factor but on this board & other boards it is. There are WAY more FC members from the East than members on the West Coast. Many guys don't recall seeing a PRIME Odjick, McSorley or Brashear. They recall a PRIME Domi, Brown, Wilson Worrell etc...
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-10-04 08:11 PM - Post#304536    

chaser: i had chris simon in my top20 all-time (around 18-20) range as early as a few years ago, but since then, he's fallen out of favor with me on the all-time rankings. his overall fight card is nothing extraordinary (given the guys he should have been fighting) and he's come well short of the expectations i had for him. coming out of junior hockey, simon looked like he had the tools to be an all-time top10 fighter, and in his early years with quebec and colorado, he was living up to that promise. he was a powerful fighter with a tremendous left hand. but since then, he's been a pure underachiever. yeah, he's had his chronic shoulder injury problems to deal with, but i honestly think that he hit his peak before his time. his mindset changed, and along with it, his fighting ability dropped off significantly. and i think he knows it too. he rarely looks for the big fights - actually hasn't for a long time. on the other hand, i look at a guy like paul laus as an overachiever - a solid toe2toe style fighter who won a lot of his fights on pure aggression and desire. he could take a punch better than most, had a stinging right hand and his endurance was better than simon's imo. laus seemed to be willing to take a fight at any time if the need was there - and fight his ass off. with simon, he's choosy. so yes - i would rank paul laus higher on my all-time scale than simon.
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
08-10-04 08:29 PM - Post#304546    

Badduke,

I'll respect the way you rank but let me ask you this....do you purposely NOT put Fotiu anywhere in your top 20 and if you don't, WHY?

Reason I say that is that he doesn't meet your criteria. He HAS a weak fight card and has a not-so-great win/loss percentage (boht in comparisons to other fighters). That to me is why you have to look at "what ifs".

ALso, how do you compare guys from different eras? Also, do you believe in primes? As Bulldog says above, a Quebec and ESPECIALLY a Colorado Simon is as awesome as anyone gets, but it's one year. If that works for him that's fine. We all have different cutoffs.

Also, conferences should take a toll. We are unblessed that Probert and Kocur only played max 2 games a year in Detroit vs Philly. (or was it 3 back then).

We could go on and on about differences. For me, the conclusion to draw for all the proponents and excuses for who's in a top 10 or so narrows down to "who in thier prime would beat who".

Other topics/criteria for best fighter lists that would change my rankings:

*Longevity fighters
*Detailed conference/division analysis
*era

etc, etc.

Also, do you have a top 10 or 20? I'm real curious not to scrutinize it but am curious as to how you rank and the consistency of it.

Keep in mind, I KNOW Brashear was champ for 98-99 and 99-00 in my books. But that two-peat and a few years of top 3 for me in a weaker era of fighting can't hang with Probert, Bridgman, Wilson, Gillies, O'Reilly, Fotiu, Brown, Nystrom,Playfair, Cochrane or even Holmgren-my top 11 guys all time.

I think head to head he's not going to fare well.

Again, it's all opinions. Proof of domination for me is 3 fights winning the majority. Not going to happen in an all time ranking.

Good points and interesting read guys!

chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-10-04 08:33 PM - Post#304548    

Thanks Bulldog, nice post on your top 20 BTW.
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

Hike
Veteran
Posts 6937
08-10-04 08:37 PM - Post#304552    

Joalkel, I'm not about to bad mouth O'Reilly as I agree with you that he was one of the games great warriors. You can count me as another who has nothing but admiration and respect for Taz.

He fought in an era when there were no rules to protect fighters like you have today. You fought till someone dropped or they pulled you apart. He fought despite injuries, like the time he fought Gillies with a separated shoulder, going to the box and popping his shoulder back in, talk about a warrior. Fighters today don't want to fight if they have a hangnail.

He never backed down from anyone and always answered the call, be it an outright challenge or to protect one of his teammates. O'Reilly fought some wild battles with Dave Schultz, Bob Kelly, Mel Bridgeman, Clarke Gillies, Gary Howatt, and many others, all Hall of Fame Fighters.

If there were a hall of fame for fighters, O'Reilly would be one of the original inductees.

But he lost to Maloney twice in the same game. I was sitting in the L.A. Forum when these fights went down.
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-10-04 08:55 PM - Post#304558    

"Guys like Probert, Brown, Wilson, Gillies...true heavys in any era. Guys like Jonathan, Nystrom, Semenko & Playfair super tough, but limited footage of them in their prime."
Nick, I'm not sure where I would rank Fotiu. As for the fighters of the present, how can you say they aren't as tough as they were back then? Guys like Laraque, Cairns, Brashear etc..would kick ass over guys like O'Reilly, Schultz, Maloney, etc..IMO. They are WAY better conditioned, & the fights in the '70s didn't last 45 seconds-two minutes long. A guy like Langdon would be just as tough as a Fotiu or Wilson because he can take a punch, & he'd wear them out...they'd be spent after 20 seconds with him.
Guys with small fight cards are hard to judge. We have no idea how a Fotiu would match up vs Laraque. Both are great punchers, but Laraque would kill him in the conditioning department & guys in the '70s didn't have the strength of guys today, whether they be on roids or not. There are just too many enforcers that Fotiu never fought, & I wouldn't wanna rank him too high purely on reputation, that would be wrong. As for Playfair, Mann, Gassoff, Maloney, these guys have VERY limited footage, & IMO, I think Playfair in his PRIME could probably hang with anyone.
Don't get me wrong, I do think Fotiu was extrememly tough, his win over Wilson was impressive, & what he did to Coxe, way after his prime was impressive as well, but he lost to Paterson & never fought a lot of guys. Not sure where I'd rank him. I do have a top 20, & like most, it would change, but I haven't done one in a while, & where do you rank Jonathan? Could he beat Domi?
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-10-04 08:59 PM - Post#304560    

Duke, we don't see eye to eye much, especially on Brashear, Odjick and Twist.. However I totally agree with your last post on the newer guys vs the older ones.. I do see your point on Brashear as well, I think when he is retired you will see him in many top 20 list, or top 10.
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

espo
captain
Posts 996
08-10-04 09:29 PM - Post#304581    

Badduke 14:
Remember your statements 20 years from now, when everyone is saying that yesterdays (Laraque, Cairns & Brashear) fighters wouldn't stand a chance against todays (year 2024) fighters who all weigh 300+ lbs of steroid muscle and stand 6'10" tall!

Believe me, it's going to hurt when you read it. So keep that open mind when they say your heros would get toasted.

As for me, fuck being fair about it! I prefer to live in the dark recesses of my memories and watch fuzzy tapes till I die.
merlin401
captain
Posts 834
merlin401
08-10-04 10:26 PM - Post#304631    

Here's mine ( i may forget a name so forgive me)

Not on my list due to no footage not neglect: Ferguson, Gassoff, Howe, Fontinado, Kurtenbach...and anyone before

1. Probert
2. Brown
3. Behn Wilson
4. Gillies
5. Kocur
6. Playfair
7. Fotiu
8. McSorely
9. Jonathan
10.Wensink
11.Domi
12.Hunter
13.Kordic
14.Nystrom
15.Bridgman
16.Holmgren
17.Cochrane
18.Grimson
19.Nilan
20.Miller

I feel bad neglecting... Semenko, Twist, Berube, McCarthy

I really think deep down that McCarthy deserves a spot, but I don't think its the popular opinion and I want to review everything he ever did before it becomes my official opinion. Hopefully I can make a strong case for him being top 20. Take him side by side with Grimson for example (just to start). If you take these last two years and put them at the start of McCarthy's career and let him end in 01-02 with a few losses and a bunch of very good wins, I say he will be in people's top 20s. Grimson started slow, got better, peaked, and then went out still good. Only McCarthy's slow time being his last few years have undermined his first 10. His dominance was incredible and nearly unparalleled.
GOON 21
superstar
Posts 2784
GOON 21
08-10-04 10:37 PM - Post#304639    

These lists are so subjective i love it, Posux i thnk we agree on that rivalry (Brown + Kordic) but when Brownie beat Jay he usually beat J pretty ez imo..(I STRONGLY believe he is under .500, and that hurts him alot!!) BTW i look at this list and there are some awesome fighters i think Jay is in the 30 or so range all time..

There are about 12-15 lists and only 2-3 people have Stu Grimson, i think you have to find a place for Stu somewhere. I will try and post 20 tommorrow..

BTW a quikie for the board, is Jim McKenzie or early Gino possibly on list? (1990-95) I think Jimmy Mac should get some consideration, simply put the guy was a "top 5-10" guy for about 8-10 years and beat ALOT of heavies.. A motivated Jimmy Mac could beat ANYONE!!!
merlin401
captain
Posts 834
merlin401
08-10-04 10:37 PM - Post#304640    

My official, "people i see listed that i don't want to see" list:

Simon (seen him at #4): Bah... he's one of my favorites all-time but what has he done to merit top 10 or top 20 status? More of an enforcer/policeman type who will go after anyone and pound them than a pure fighter, he just doesn't have the big wins over great competition to be here. Plus his prime was way to short due to injury. When you consider that McCarthy was even more dominant (slightly) at the same time with a muuuch better card (and won their only head-to-head) there is no way Simon can be behind McCarthy. And a similar case can be made for at least 20 others.

O'Reilly (seen him at #19, #20): I think he was conistent and very good, but not all time great to be mentioned with the names around him. Was he ever top 5 even? Its hard to remember a time when he was ever even #1 on his team (which really takes a lot of pressure of a fighter). He has too many losses and not an illustrious enough path of destruction to be placed here IMO.

Howatt (seen him at #20): Why? He's just a glorified middle weight with a great career. But I dont' see him measuring up to the heavyweights that could be in place of him at all. Not sure plett quite belongs either but, alas, i really don't know enough about him to be a fair judge

Brashear (seen him at #8, #12, #20): I'm uncomfortable seeing him be with these great names. This has already been discussed but, dominance is a very poor word to use for Brashear. Undefeated (or close to it) is a fair word. He doesn't let himself be beaten. And he's won a good number of fights cleanly or even dominantly. But how is he a feared force in this league? Anyone could hug back and avoid any sort of major damage. He has very little FEAR factor because of his style and that serves as a major detractor from his all time ranking IMO.
merlin401
captain
Posts 834
merlin401
08-10-04 10:39 PM - Post#304641    

Quote:

A motivated Jimmy Mac could beat ANYONE!!!




Yeah, but how often was he motivated? Not that often... He was a very passive, almost gentlemanly fighter throughout his career. Not taking anything away from how good he was, but he didn't have the killer instinct of a grimson or a twist or a mccarthy so I think he should be behind all those guys, despite his solid and long career.
Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-10-04 10:48 PM - Post#304646    

I don't think "fear" should be taken into consideration because "fear alone" isn't gonna win you many bouts. As for style, it's what works for you, & if Brashear's style is so lame, why can't anyone adopt his style & clearly beat him? Brashear has KO power, great strength & stamina, all important qualities needed to be an elite enforcer, along with a very strong fight card & willingness to go, mostly in his first 4 seasons, but he's kept to at least 10 per season over the last 4 or so years. Not alot, but more than some.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

the hammer
superstar
Posts 3916
08-10-04 10:51 PM - Post#304647    

First off, i'd like to say why do you need to see dozens of some players fights in order to judge him in the top 20? Even a guy like Gassoff who only played in the NHL for 2 seasons has enough fights that are either on tape or documented in print in order to make a judgment on him. Also i'm shocked that anyone would even consider Jay Miller in the top 20 of all time. Byers was a much better fighter and should be mention ahead of Miller. Here's my Top 20:

1) Bob Probert - His great feat was always avenging any of his few losses.
2) Bob Nystrom - Surprised? Just look at the record: one of only a few that beat Fotiu, manhandled Wensink like nobody had ever done, out-slugged Playfair in one of the top 10 fights of all time in my opinion, had only 2 or 3 losses in a 14 year career and may have the best win-lose % of any fighter. In fact Gillies may have more losses than him. Best two fisted thrower of all time
3)Behn Wilson - Very few losses, one of the best uppercuts in the business.
4)Nick Fotiu - His few losses are for some reason always mention but he usually lost to the excellent fighters: Holmgren, Jack Carlson who may have been the best WHA fighter of all time. His lose to Patterson is overrated, Patterson never hurt him in any way.
5)tie Clark Gillies - Gillies had the best and hardest punch maybe of all time. If he fought more i'd have him much higher.
5)tie Dave Brown - Best lefty of them all. The only knock on him was he didn't have a good right.
6)Stan Jonathan - Gillies was the only player that ever decked him. Excellent win-lose percentage. Only bad showing against an above average fighter was against Nill.
7) Larry Playfair - Had a booming right, second to only Gillies or Kocur. Very few losses.
8)Bob Gassoff - Very few players ever had the impact in their first 2 seasons like he did. Hammered Howatt,pounded Bridgman, great toe to toe with Mulvey(all of these are either on video or audio). Two pounding of Tiger Williams. Very few losses(Schultz, Turnbull) and maybe the best rep during his too short years in hockey. Just read any old articles or talk to players that were around back then and you'll see why us old-timers rate him so high.
9)Glen Cochrane - Great brawler that took on and beat most of the best in his day.
10)Dave Schultz - This guy just doesn't get his due, probably because he was so hated outside Philly. Sure he had some losses but look at his card: A draw with Dan Maloney who most people consider the best back then, out punched Gassoff and that rarely happened against Bob, out-pointed or a draw at the worst against Jonathan(who's in alot of people's top 15), slight edge against Gillies in their first fight, many poundings on Howatt, Solid draw against Behn Wilson, who's in everyones top 3.
11) Marty McSorley - He got better as he aged.
12) Jay Wells - You may be shocked at this but how many guys besides Brown beat him? He hammered Tim Hunter twice and who else can make that claim? I just got a tape on him and after watching it i'm convinced he was as tough as anyone from 1980 to 1990.
13)John Wensink - Always in the top 3 when ever he played. Only bad loss was to Nystrom
14) John Ferguson - Just on what i've read this guy can count his losses on one hand. Would have been in the top 3 in any decade that he played. If there was any tape on him he'd would be more appreciated.
15) Tim Hunter - Very very underrated fighter. Beat Semeneko and had very few bad fights. His worst defeats were probably against Jay Wells.
16) Gordie Howe - If any Gordie's fights were on tape you younsters would appreciate him more. He was as feared as Gillies was, maybe more. Fred Shero was once quoted as saying "in the last 10 years of Gordie's career in the NHL nobody even challenged him".
17) Dan Maloney - Maybe Dan should be higher on the list. Went undeafted in his first 6 years. Another guy who people would rate higher if there was more of his fights avaiable.
18)Paul Holmgren - Doesn't get the credit he deserves from some people but he one of the best and busiest fighters in his time.
19)Craig Berube
20) Orland Kurtenbach - Only Ferguson and Howe may have been better fighters during the 60's. Like Fotiu he boxed more than brawled. Didn't have many losses from what i've read and heard. Though he did lose to Bobby Orr.

Honerable Mention
Link Gaetz - If he played more in the NHL and wasn't such a fuck-up, Link would have been in the top 5 of all time IMO
Terry O'Reilly - Though he had his share of losses, he beat some of the best(Schultz, Gillies, Maloney).
Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-10-04 11:03 PM - Post#304653    

Interesting take, I can respect that. Nice write ups as well.
One thing though; I'm not a big fan of a hockey writer stories about fighting, because you just have to look & read some of the writer's opinion on who they have as a top 10 or best fighters of ..pick an era. Alot of them, aren't into this "hobby" as much as we are, & I think many of their "top lists" are usually way off.
Just my opinion.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

merlin401
captain
Posts 834
merlin401
08-10-04 11:15 PM - Post#304659    

Quote:


I don't think "fear" should be taken into consideration because "fear alone" isn't gonna win you many bouts. As for style, it's what works for you, & if Brashear's style is so lame, why can't anyone adopt his style & clearly beat him? Brashear has KO power, great strength & stamina, all important qualities needed to be an elite enforcer, along with a very strong fight card & willingness to go, mostly in his first 4 seasons, but he's kept to at least 10 per season over the last 4 or so years. Not alot, but more than some.





A few points of rebuttle:

* Of course fear should be taken into consideration! You say fear wont win you fights, and maybe that is true (except it may make your opponents more defensive). But I say, what good is fighting if it doesn't generate fear? For a show, for somethign to do? An enforcers job is to bring fear and I believe most of the greatest enforcers created it (either 'i'm going to break your face' fear like Brown or Kocur or 'what the hell is this nutcase going to do next' fear like Semenko or Domi perhaps, or at least 'better not wake this giant cause he'll pummell us' fear like Gillies or Playfair). Yes fear is important. Its an important goal of an enforcer, and one that Brashear does not bring enough of for his capability.

* I won't call Brashear's style lame. I've never contributed to his bash thread here. It works for him, good for him. But its not threatening, not intimidating, not fear-inspiring, and not worthy to stand next to someone with a "better" style such as, say, Grimson. Also its never been copied because he's stronger than almost everyone.

* Brashear does have KO power, great stamina, and strength. I wish he'd use it toe-to-toe and not act afraid of being hit. Imagine if he drilled people like he did to Peat this year all season long...he'd be a legend.

* "willingness to go"... now thats got to be a joke?? His first few years we should not count because he wasn't that good. Since he has been the antichrist of "willingness to go." All his turn-downs, fake glove drops and turtles to draw penalties... to me that is a serious detractor from an overall fighter's record. And 10 fights a year is nothing, honestly, especially considering that at least HALF of those are crap fights.
Fubu
hall of famer
Posts 6493
08-10-04 11:27 PM - Post#304664    

Hike, BullDog, and Hammer: I love Cochrane, but all of you guys put him pretty high. I never thought of him as an elite fighter, or one of the best of the best. He's probably one of the most exciting fighters, and a great fighter no doubt, but I'd have a hard time ranking him near the top ten all time. Just curious why you guys are placing him so high?

And since I took the time to critique your guys' lists, I'll add one of my own which will likely be worse than anyone's. Just some of the guys I think were the toughest all time. And this is just based on guys I think are tough regardless of card, number of fights, power, length of prime, bad losses, etc. It's a list of guys I think could fight anyone and come out all right, and is in no particular order:

Brown, Kocur, Wilson, Twist, Probert, Gaetz, McSorely, Domi, Jonathan, Fotiu, Gillies, Schultz, Ray, Ferguson (just based on what I have read), Simon, O'Reilly, Maloney (based on what I've read in publications and a bit of what I read from Espo and the rest of the LA crew), Cochrane (okay, but not near the top ten - I'd put Gaetz over him to be honest), Williams, Miller, and Semenko.

Notable omissions: Kordic (never thought much of him), and Playfair (never saw much of him), along with Nystrom (he'd probably just miss), Crowder, and Gassoff (only saw about two or three of his fights). I'm probably missing someone else. Also, current guys that have a chance to be a top fighter (in my mind) including Brashear, Worrell, Parker, Cairns, and Laraque.

Obviously my list is a little biased toward the 80's and 90's, and I'm sure I am leaving out some guys that played on the west coast - Hunter, etc - simply because I don't know enough about them. Basically, I think some guys deserve a top fighter status because of power (Ray), ability to take a punch like no other (Domi), what they did for the game (Ferguson and Schultz), dominance (Probert), inner toughess (Williams), and a whole lot of factors. I wouldn't rank each according to the same set of standards. That kind of makes the entire process a little boring. If I see a guy fight and he looks like a fighter (not just someone who is going to outland an opponent) I like him.
Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-10-04 11:30 PM - Post#304666    

You can't discount his willingness to go in his first 4 seasons because he wasn't that good. The FACT IS he did go, often & I'm sure he led the league or was second in majors in 97-98. Sure that was a while ago, but rarely does an enforcer ,as they age fight more often. He does have some decent skill & wants to play more than the role of just a goon. Sure his fights declined but so did Odjick, McCarthy, Laraque, Domi, etc...these guys didn't or aren't racking up 19-20 majors per season.
As for the fake gloves drop, or skating away, yes, not a good sign, but that doesn't take away the FACT that he DOES NOT LOSE very often.
On the fear thing...Yes some guys were feared more than others, but that isn't gonna win you a lot of fights, if it did, Twist & Kocur would be undefeated.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-11-04 01:17 AM - Post#304697    

Probert
Brown
Wilson
Gillies
Fotiu
Playfair
Nystrom
Kocur
Hunter
Jonathan
Semenko
Miller
Domi
Wensink
Twist
Domi
Bridgman
Grimson
Holmgren
Nilan

chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-11-04 01:34 AM - Post#304704    

Duke, I also look at the card and the win/lost ratio when doing a top 20 list..

Let me ask you this.. Out of 10 fights how do you see Brashear doing with a PRIME Twist and Kocur.. These are two guys I have rated higher then him purely because I feel if they went with Brash 10x they would have more wins. Just my opinion.
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-11-04 01:50 AM - Post#304706    

Chaser: It's win/loss!

shanny14
all star
Posts 1486
shanny14
08-11-04 04:17 AM - Post#304729    

Here's mine:

1 Probert
2 Brown
3 Fotiu
4 Wilson
5 Gillies
6 Schultz
7 Kocur
8 Nystrom
9 McSorley
10 Domi
11 Playfair
12 Bridgman
13 Twist
14 Grimson
15 Semenko
16 Jonathon
17 Hunter
18 Nilan
19 O'Reilly
20 Kordic

Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
08-11-04 05:34 AM - Post#304734    

Good read guys.

Badduke, you mention Langdon's stamina. I like Langdon a lot so my comments aren't a knock on him.

Where did stamina get him in multiple fights with Grimson? Grimson is a throwback to the old time fighters. I know 2 fights at least Grimson owned him and my memory, the Hartford fight is Langdon's biggest loss. I honestly don't see Langdon doing well against a Brown. I see Fotiu actually murdering him and I see him outpunched and outlasted!

Another rebutt-longevity of a fight. Bridgman-Nystrom, Dudley-Kelly, the list goes on and on.

But your right about conditioning. Today's guys are behemoths and conditioned 20x over the older guys. Does that make Jay Caufield a threat? Look at the UFC, do the big conditioned guys always do well?

The heart and passion of the 70's and 80's guys overwhelm the conditioning of the new guys. You're going to tell me Laraque in 2003-04 looked like he could hang with anyone in my top 10? He's 5 years in the NHL and washed up. Brashear's lack of passion in many fights is pathetic. He's a shadow though of McKenzie. The more and more I watch Brashear(PHI) puss out and hold onto a primed Worrell(FLA) is a stamping over and over of a label I put on him. Probert pussed out ONCE against Brownie and never did that again in his career.

I put Domi in my top 20 and he's moving up fast. Jonathan right around 20-23.

Badduke, I know you said your lists change but who's roughly in your top 10?

Hike
Veteran
Posts 6937
08-11-04 06:34 AM - Post#304747    

I'll bite, LOL.

Comparing these guys outside of their eras is really an exercise in futility, but since it came up, what the hell.

We are talking about two entirely different games. Players such as Gillies, Wilson, Playfair, and many of the others late 70/early 80 fighters were players that could fight, and not fighters that could play. These guys were called upon to do much more than just fight. They were solid players and skated regular shifts.

Guys like Gillies, Playfair, Holmgren, Maloney, Plett, and Wilson weren't just fighters. These guys made all-star squads.

Even the Wensink's, Jonathan's, Howatt's, and Nystrom's skated regular shifts and contributed more to their teams than just fighting.

Maybe today's guys are better conditioned, but most of them log 30 seconds of ice time a game while those guys I mentioned were logging 15-20 minutes and still fighting. I give them much more credit for that than I do these guys who skate one 30 second shift, drop their gloves for their one obligatory fight, and than don't see the ice for the remainder of the game.

Playfair, Gillies, Wilson, these guys were not just great fighters and solid hockey players, they were also great intimidators. In the era they played in, intimidation was as much a part of the game as scoring. Without intimidation, fighting means nothing. And in the current game, intimidation has been completely eliminated. It wasn't always that way.

In their era, it wasn't the fights and brawls that made hockey great, it was the passion, the intensity of the game and thought that anything could, and often did, happen. When fighters are taking regular shifts and something could happen at any time, that's interesting, exciting hockey. That was the very fabric of what made hockey great and that's what is missing from today's game.

When you talk about enforcers being impact players I think more in the mode of a Gillies, a key contributor to 4 Stanley Cup winners, an all-star player, and a feared enforcer. You want to talk about enforcers being impact players, look at Bobby Nystrom. Had a fight, a ten-minute misconduct, and scored the cup winning goal in overtime of game 6.

Badduke mentions these giant, well-trained, professional fighters of today against those small, ill-trained, out of shape fighters of the 70's. Lets take Brashear. How can anyone not see that a fighter like Behn Wilson wouldn't stand a chance against this monster? Worrell against Playfair? You can't be serious if you think Playfair belongs in the same class of fighter as Worrell. Worrell would simply dominate Playfair. Parker and Fotiu? Total mismatch. Parker would dispense of Fotiu in no time. Laraque vs Gillies? That one is laughable. What other "Giants" do we have today. I guess Cairns belongs in that class. So we can match up Cairns with Holmgren. What chance would a guy like Holmgren really have with as skilled a fighter as Cairns.

I really can't see how anyone can claim that Brashear, Worrell, Laraque, Parker, or Cairns would cruise through the fighters of the 70's. Does anyone really think Worrell or Brashear would dominate any one of those fighters mentioned above? Who wins those matchups? I really don't know, but I sure wouldn't be able to say that today's group would dominate the 70's group. IMO, the top 10 or 15 fighters from the 70's could certainly fight in any era, including todays.

While maybe most would concur that the top fighters of the 70's, (Fotiu, Gillies, Playfair, Wilson) could compete with the bigger fighters of today. The major disagreement seems to be with the "smaller" fighters of the 70's; guys like Gassoff, Nystrom, Jonathan, Bridgeman, Battleship Kelly, Maloney, etc.. Gassoff and Jonathan were of similar stature to Domi, and Domi has done pretty well for himself against some of the bigger fighters. Yet, I don't necessarily think Domi is better than either Gassoff or Jonathan, or even John Ferguson for that matter.

Guys like Bridgeman, Maloney, Kelly, Nystrom, and O'Reilly are of similar size to Langdon and Laus. Langdon and Laus have been competitive with the current crop of heavy's and have been consistently competitive for several years now. And again, I don't really think that Laus and Langdon are any better than Nystrom, Maloney, Bridgeman or O'Reilly. Therefore, if the "smaller" fighters of today can compete with the big boys, I would think that those fighters of similar stature in the 70's could also compete.

I'd venture to guess that these "smaller" fighters would do as well as, or maybe even better than, Laus, Langdon, and Domi. Maybe not contend for the title, but they really weren't title contenders back in the 70's either. Well, outside maybe of Maloney contending in the very early 70's.

I've said it before and I continue to feel that way, that the best of any era could compete in any era. That goes for the best of the 70's, 80's, and 90's

To me, the 70's game was so much better and the fights were just much more real. Players fought for pride, team, jobs, and most often because they were just pissed.

I think another reason alot of us prefer the 70's brand of hockey is because back than all players were expected to stand up for themselves. If a player was to throw a cheap shot, that was the player that was held accountable, not the other teams designated heavyweight.

Another difference is that most everyone could, or would, at least have to fight back than. As a comparison, the 3 best offensive defensemen back than were Orr, Park, and Potvin. All three were not just offensive defensemen, they were all physical and all could fight. How would they compare fight wise with the 3 best offensive defensemen in today's game? Just pointing out one aspect, in the 70's you had to be able to play and take care of yourself, unlike todays game.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that both the 70's and 80's were good years for hockey fans. Just that toward the latter stages of the the 80's, more second rate goons entered the league and that padded alot of fight cards.

Those of us that were there in the 70's witnessed the very best, most exciting hockey ever played. Those that missed out on it, I feel bad for you, but at least you got to see the 80's.
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment

ILB
superstar
Posts 4274
ILB
08-11-04 06:42 AM - Post#304748    

Great post Hike and I agree with alot of your points.

This has been a great thread so far so please keep up the excellent debate guys - Its been really interesting to see which qualities that some people emphasize when they rank the "best" fighters of all time, and how the comparison of different time and playing eras plays a factor in each individual list. To those who have posted their top 20 list thank you, and to those who have yet to post their top 20 (BADDUKE ) please do so... Your input could help make this one of the most authorative lists of top 20 fighters ever compiled.
"The Hand is fine, I got a shot of chromosome yesterday."

John Kordic on the status of his hand.

Holmgren
superstar
Posts 3204
Holmgren
08-11-04 08:39 AM - Post#304813    

Merlin,

Simon is a hard guy to judge for a top 20 all time guy. Whenever these list are put together there is a general agreement on the top 5 or so guys then it depends on other factors, with some homer picks as well. I watched Simon
I see Blue! . . . He looks glorious!

dunlopyousuck
all star
Posts 1136
08-11-04 09:15 AM - Post#304853    

Quote:

Badduke, you mention Langdon's stamina. I like Langdon a lot so my comments aren't a knock on him.

Where did stamina get him in multiple fights with Grimson? Grimson is a throwback to the old time fighters. I know 2 fights at least Grimson owned him and my memory, the Hartford fight is Langdon's biggest loss. I honestly don't see Langdon doing well against a Brown. I see Fotiu actually murdering him and I see him outpunched and outlasted!




To be honest, Langdon always handled himself fairly well against Grimson . . . in Langdon's defense, the time he was dropped by Stu (arguably his worst loss ever), Stu got the jersey over Darren's head and Langer was basically fighting blind . . . to his credit, he didn't turtle like a bitch, but stayed in the fight, allowing Stu to tee off on him . . . in the four fights I've seen between the two, I've got it Grimson with one win and one edge, and Darren with one edge and one draw . . . I definitely think Langdon could hang with anybody in any time, including Dave Brown and Nick Fotiu . . . I certainly would pick Brownie over him head to head, but I doubt he'd demolish Darren - in Langdon's prime (which is just about over), he definitely lost some, but NOBODY demolished him . . . as for Fotiu outlasting him, I would wager my house that he wouldn't . . .
merlin401
captain
Posts 834
merlin401
08-11-04 09:15 AM - Post#304854    

Again, I like Simon and had him in the top 10 this year too. But look at the pluses for a career. Wins against a slightly past prime Probert, a past prime Brown, and a before prime Domi; 3 years of dominance; destruction of a lot of 2nd tier fighters; and a nice rebound year almost a decade later. To me it doesn't add up to top 20.... maybe 30-35.

As for McCarthy. Would anyone care to fix this if I'm making a mistake... But he had 5 years of being great and a champion for at least part of that (in Calgary), and four years of being very good (I'd say he went from being solid top 10er in TB and Philly to a borderline top 10er for a year or two and finally maybe #8 or so in 02-03). Scrap his last two years and thats a great career!
merlin401
captain
Posts 834
merlin401
08-11-04 09:19 AM - Post#304863    

Quote:

Quote:

Badduke, you mention Langdon's stamina. I like Langdon a lot so my comments aren't a knock on him.

Where did stamina get him in multiple fights with Grimson? Grimson is a throwback to the old time fighters. I know 2 fights at least Grimson owned him and my memory, the Hartford fight is Langdon's biggest loss. I honestly don't see Langdon doing well against a Brown. I see Fotiu actually murdering him and I see him outpunched and outlasted!




To be honest, Langdon always handled himself fairly well against Grimson . . . in Langdon's defense, the time he was dropped by Stu (arguably his worst loss ever), Stu got the jersey over Darren's head and Langer was basically fighting blind . . . to his credit, he didn't turtle like a bitch, but stayed in the fight, allowing Stu to tee off on him . . . in the four fights I've seen between the two, I've got it Grimson with one win and one edge, and Darren with one edge and one draw . . . I definitely think Langdon could hang with anybody in any time, including Dave Brown and Nick Fotiu . . . I certainly would pick Brownie over him head to head, but I doubt he'd demolish Darren - in Langdon's prime (which is just about over), he definitely lost some, but NOBODY demolished him . . . as for Fotiu outlasting him, I would wager my house that he wouldn't . . .




Completely agree here. When judging fighting ability how can you bring up the Grimson fight where he had the sweater completely over his head?? Of course he's going to lose that one! Langdon's not as good as many of the all timers but I doubt any of them out beat Langer up unless some freak thing happened (like the jersey in the Grimson fight). That being said, Langdon certainly wouldn't win many against the elite either and probably Brown, Fotiu, etc would all edge him out slightly. (and no way Fotiu outlasts Langdon... I cant see that happening)
Johnny_Upton
Moderator
Posts 29165
Johnny_Upton
08-11-04 09:59 AM - Post#304899    

1. Probert
2. Wilson
3. Fotiu
4. Brown
5. Gillies
6. McSorley
7. Kocur
8. Carlson
9. Playfair
10. Nystrom
11. Cochrane
12. Semenko
13. Jonathan
14. Holmgren
15. Hunter
16. Grimson
17. Wensink
18. Kelly
19. Maloney
20. Domi

IMO - After the top 5, there seems to be a "drop-off". The balance of fighters can be thrown in a hopper and sorted based on any number of points one beleives to be valid
Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves.

#Filthystrong

the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-11-04 10:04 AM - Post#304906    

hike, as usual, has hit the points in this "yesterday vs today" debate smack on. well done buddy. i've been down this perverbial road of debate many times on this board about "bigger size = better/tougher fighter" and "today's fighters are better conditioned threfore they are better/tougher fighters" blah, blah blah ...... i'm just not in the mood right now to get into another exhaustive debate that usually ends up no further than when we started. i would, however, like to comment on some of badduke's comments, who btw, i think is a good poster and generally knows his shit, but he's wrong about a few things here:

1. you suggest that fear plays no part in this discussion about fighter rankings. i say bullshit to that. in a competitive, physical, highly emotional/adrenalin filled game like hockey, fear and intimidation can be a huge element in an enforcer's repertoire. maybe not today (because most fights lack emotion, intensity and purpose and are generally choreographed and obligatory), but years ago, fear and intimidation is what kept the opposing teams honest and generally respectful of their opponents. the game was played at a high degree of intensity and sometimes things would escalate and get out of hand. that was the opportunity for enforcers to make their case on behalf of their team. if they were successful and made players pay for their actions, word spread around the league quickly that "such and such" was legit and could/would beat the tar out of ya. a great example was jimmy mann. this is a guy that i can tell you for fact that doesn't scare easily. he's a couple of bricks short of a load on his best days and thinks nothing, to this day, about laying the hammer on somebody. he was brought in to winnipeg by john ferguson with the intent purpose of playing the enofcer role for the jets. ferguson knew a thing or two about picking out effective enforcers and good fighters. in mann's first year, he took on as many heavyweights and top level enforcers that he could get his hands on to make his mark. his reputation from the Q in junior hockey was already as good as you could get, but he wanted to try out the best of the best. he got his wish and fought semenko, playfair, plett, secord, jonathan, fraser etc. many of which multiple times - all in his first year. yet he wanted nothing to do with clark gillies and he admitted that. he had heard what gillies had done to 2 very good fighters in hospodar and hoyda and wanted no part of him. mann had also played alongside of hoyda in winnipeg and hoyda, who was a tough dude in every right, and heard first hand how tough clark gillies was. gillies therefore got room for himself and his teammates (because of that rep) from a screwball enforcer that usually would think nothing of taking on jethro. i could go on and on about the effect that gillies rep had on opposing enforcers. those that did fight him in their prime, generally were cautious about the circumstances in which to do so. the message was clear - this is a guy not to fight when he's pissed - he turns it up a huge notch and looks to kill you - and can. in the bruins/islander playoff series of 1980, those fights between gillies and taz were part of a game plan that the islanders had for terry oreilly. john wensink confirmed this in later years when talking to gillies. clark had huge respect for terry as a player and a fighter, and they thought that he was an integral part of how the bruins played on the ice. they felt that if they could bang up terry oreilly, they could demoralize the bruins et al. so, it was clark gillies who was assigned to go after terry (they matched up on the wings as well)- not because he didn't like him and wanted to hurt him, but to try and intimidate the bruins leader. terry was very tough to intimidate. he was a hockey warrior - and would fight for his team regardless of conditions/injury and who the opponent was. clark gillies wasn't truly pissed at oreilly in most of those fights - but he wanted to make a point. terry fought back hard and made his own point with the islanders that he would not be intimidated. as much as i like al secord, especially in his bruin days, secord would not have been able to stand up to gillies like terry did. secord fought gillies once and found out the hard way. both wensink and jonathan, although willing to fight gillies, will openly admit that they were reluctant to do so. therefore, the fear that gillies put into the hearts and minds of even some of the best enforcers and fighters in hockey, made them think twice about their role, and could potentially change the way they would handle a situation. i've given a couple of examples of how fear played a huge part in an enforcers repertoire. it was a reputation that had to be earned and maintained, but once established, it would change the way opposing fighters would play and/or fight in a given game. you have to remember, most top-level hockey enforcers had huge respect for their opposition. they usually played with just enough fear to keep you on edge and alert, but not fearful of turning down a fight when it was needed. however a guy like clark gillies was different to many. he outright scared them if he was to fight mad. that, in my opinion, is a big reason why gillies fight card, in his prime, is nothing earth shattering. he had fewer takers than most, and he had a longer fuse than most. but don't mistake that for him being a less-than capable fighter. you'll have a hard time convincing anybody that played against him that that was the case.

2. "today's players are better conditioned and bigger, therefore better/tougher". i'm paraphrasing here, but once again, i agree on the conditioning aspect, but nothing more. there s no question that if you have 2 fighters of equal skill and character, the guy with the better reach and power will have a decided advantage. that's why there are weight classes in professional and amateur boxing and many MMA tournaments. but what you're missing here is that you are making a huge and erroneous assumption that all bigger guys and better conditioned guys are equal in fighting skill and constitution to the guys who have less reach and pounds behind them. that's just flat out wrong, and has been proven wrong in all forms of fighting, including hockey fights, since anyone can remember. this is a whole other discussion in itself if we need to get into it. all i'm going to say though at this point is that there are a limited few fighters around today that, despite their pumped up size, have what it takes to dust off the guys that you see as being hammered easily. i just don't see it. a behmoth guy like peter worrell has long arms, but he isn't particularly strong, has poor co-ordination from what i've seen of him, doesn't have a particularly heavy punch, and his chin rarely gets tested well enough to see how tough it really is. in fact, it was only a couple of years ago how worrell was routinely criticized for "hugging". since then, he's realized that he's not going to get hurt out there these days - most guys don't want to open up and throw like they mean it. so he uses his reach to hold many smaller guys out, keeping his chin well protected. if he's fighting another "big guy", he's routinely careful not to engage himself in a real fight. he's only in trouble if a guy like langdon knows how to get inside, thwarting his reach advantage, and forcing him to actually fight. if a guy like langdon had a little more power in his punches, worrell would be tasting the ice with regularity. and peter worrell is considered one of the best around today - and i would basically agree that he is. i'm not trying to diss on him purposefully, but i can name many others who typically fall into his category. sure he'd win some fights against some of the guys you say are lunch pails, but against the better fighters from back then, i say he'd be a relatively easy mark. we can take this discussion any way you want to, but if it's anything like what has gone down on this board in the past, nothing gets agreed upon or settled. myself and a few other vets here like hike and durbano etc have one opinion, and then there is the oppositie viewpoint. i'm not looking to "convert" anybody here. just, review the facts as they are as it relates to the science of fighting, especially on skates, and draw your own conclusions ...
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

Neely8
hall of famer
Posts 6303
Neely8
08-11-04 10:59 AM - Post#304944    

1. Probert
2. Wilson
3. Fotiu
4. Playfair
5. Nystrom
6. Kocur
7. Hunter
8. Gillies
9. Brown
10. Domi
11. Cochrane
12. Holmgren
13. Maloney
14. Wensink
15. Jonathan
16. McSorley
17. Bridgeman
18. Plett
19. O'Reilly
20. Grimson
Boulton
superstar
Posts 3000
08-11-04 11:10 AM - Post#304957    

Nice list Neely8!!

Hey guys--I love the heart and soul that Terry O brought to the ice every night, but putting him ahead, or close to, Playfair is ridiculous.

When Neely8, a diehard Bruins fan, has Playfair so far ahead of O'Reilly you have to ask yourself if he knows a thing or two?
"Go fuck yourself, Mr. Cheney! Go fuck yourself, you asshole!" Emergency Room Physican Dr. Ben Marble

Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-11-04 11:38 AM - Post#304975    

Langdon has been dropped by Grimson twice, with his sweater being put over his head both times. Langdon beat Grimson at the Garden and their fourth fight was a draw.

GOON 21
superstar
Posts 2784
GOON 21
08-11-04 12:13 PM - Post#305007    

Hmmm so subjective but on fighting ability.. These are guys i have seen.

1. B Probert - the champ, probably the best tools/mindset EVER for a enforcer..
2. D Brown - nasty mean 6'5 lefty great in philly..
3. C Gillies - maybe best/most accurate puncher on board, if meaner could be #1
4. B Nystrom - feirce puncher, great W/L %, "hurt* Playfair!
5. S Jonathon - another great W/L %, tuff lil SOB
6. L Playfair - great right hand, tall tuff SOB
7. B Wilson - nasty ornory, great uppercut
8. N Fotiu - brought respect to NY and got respect from ALL philly team!
9. D Semenko - "young" Semenko was scary
10. T Hunter - ive seen him "dismantle" many heavies
11. M McSorley - great fighter, also great "enforcer, marathon fighter
12. T Domi - except for Brown, he beat ALL heavies of his time
13. D Brashear - yea we ALL hate him, but SOB can fight! #1 for 5 years
14. J Kocur - most KO's on board? lethal right hand
15. S Grimson - got better as he got older, top 5 guy for 6-7 yrs
16. W Plett - as youngster he + Gillies battled to draw, LOVED that he walked into Spectrum and got respect!
17. J McKenzie - most underrated fighter on board, top 5-10 guy for 10 yrs, EZ beat some good heavies
18. P Holmgam - replaced Shultz, solid heavy and good fighter
19. C Nilan - GREAT card (best ever?) only Playfair "handled" him
20. G Cochrane - mean, good fighter, but the shirtlessness helped him ALOT!


Honerable mentions - J Wensink, T Oreilly, D Langdon, B Beck, C Simon, E Cairns, G Laraque, T Twist among many!
Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
08-11-04 12:32 PM - Post#305022    

dunlopyousuck, do you have the rough years of those Grimson fights with Langer. I want to recheck them. I've got them all but tonight want to review them.
My memory has Langon getting beat in two. After that that's all the brain recalls.

Good read guys. Always interested in rankings.

I'll make an addendum to this list. HOW do you guys above formulate your rankings? What's your criteria?

And Badduke, take it as a compliment people want to see your list!

Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-11-04 12:47 PM - Post#305036    

Grimson and Langdon fought twice in the 96-97 season and twice in the 97-98 season.

the hammer
superstar
Posts 3916
08-11-04 01:55 PM - Post#305095    

Jay Wells handled Nilan and beat him twice.
HABSFAN
veteran
Posts 383
HABSFAN
08-11-04 05:03 PM - Post#305281    

Serge Roberge is my favorite of all time
chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-11-04 05:09 PM - Post#305289    

Habs, this is not a top 20 fav fighters thread.. It's the top 20 best fighters of all time.
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

HABSFAN
veteran
Posts 383
HABSFAN
08-11-04 05:31 PM - Post#305310    

roberge was one of the best & I can wright what ever the fuck I want.
espo
captain
Posts 996
08-11-04 06:29 PM - Post#305345    

I knew if I waited, Hike would save me the time of writing all that. So once again... what he said.

What if, just what if, all those stories are true? Since I came from the era when reps and intimidation went hand in hand and little guys had something to fear (they weren
JruGordon
superstar
Posts 3956
JruGordon
08-11-04 06:32 PM - Post#305349    

this is pointless, but espo's post in here was number 11000 in this forum

EDIT-let me clarify...this post itself, the one you are reading, is pointless...the thread is a great idea, and so was Espo's post...i apologize if anyone thought i was saying the thread or Espo's post were pointless

chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-11-04 07:33 PM - Post#305398    

Gordon, why is this "pointless"? This is some of the better debating I have seen on FC in a long time.

Habsfan, it's "write", and yes you can, but don't think you won't get called on it. I was giving you advice. Oh, and you won't fight Roberge in any top 20 list. Sorry..
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-11-04 07:36 PM - Post#305401    

Damn, you are stupid, Chaser.....he was saying that his statement following was pointless, not the thead!

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-11-04 07:42 PM - Post#305410    

Probert
Brown

This is all I have done for the moment.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

JruGordon
superstar
Posts 3956
JruGordon
08-11-04 07:46 PM - Post#305419    

everyone go back to page 8, there is a clarification of my post in there...

chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-11-04 07:49 PM - Post#305421    

JRU, thanks.

Posux, let's try to stick to the topic. It's pointless to argue in such a great thread. Thank you.

Duke, come on.. I wanna see the list as well!
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-11-04 07:53 PM - Post#305425    

get rid of that bird, & maybe I can concentrate.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-11-04 07:54 PM - Post#305428    

LOL!
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-11-04 08:00 PM - Post#305433    

Fotiu never fought Gillies or Bridgman correct?
Nystrom never fought Wilson or Holmgren correct?
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

JruGordon
superstar
Posts 3956
JruGordon
08-11-04 08:05 PM - Post#305437    

badduke14, you are correct, Fotiu never fought Gillies nor Bridgman...

Nystrom fought Dunc Wilson, but i know that's not who you mean.. that's the only Wilson he fought, and he never fought Holmgren

Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-11-04 08:36 PM - Post#305459    


now, back to the topic of this thread ...
dunlopyousuck
all star
Posts 1136
08-12-04 09:51 AM - Post#305760    

Quote:

Grimson and Langdon fought twice in the 96-97 season and twice in the 97-98 season.




Yep . . .
Playfair27
captain
Posts 654
Playfair27
08-12-04 02:05 PM - Post#306068    

The following is my top 20. I'm sorry that from #12 - #20 I couldn't go into more detail. I just started to get tired of typing.

1) Bob Probert
What can be said about him, he's the best hockey's ever seen. He had great stamina, a long reach and an above average punch, great accuracy in his punches and a solid chin. He used the losing the jersey tactic to his advantage but with Probert it would be hard to argue the results of his fights would be too different.
The list of players he's beaten is a long who's who of hockey's tough guys in the last 20 years of the game, those players would include a very tough young Scott Stevens, Bob McGill, Gary Nylund, Todd Ewen, Brian Curran, Wendel Clark, Daryl Stanley, Mark Tinordi, & Darrin Kimble. He's beaten young up coming heavies such as Tony Twist and Scott Parker. He's beaten aging Super Heavies Dave Semenko & Glen Cochrane and Prime Super Heavies such as Tim Hunter, Jay Miller, Marty McSorley, Dave Brown, Stu Grimson, Troy Crowder, Craig Berube, Tie Domi, Ken Baumgartner & Donald Brashear. No doubt He's the best ever.

2) Behn Wilson
He was as mean and as strong as they come, Had great punching power and one of the best upper cuts hockey's ever seen, great strength and a rock solid chin. He was hard to knock off his feet, and was absolutely relentless when he was pissed off...mean, mean, mean, at times he looked like he wanted to rip a players eyes out of their head. You would need one hand to count the number of loses he's had during his career. He's beaten a very tough Gary Howatt, Terry O'Reilly, Bob McGill and Chris Nilan. He's beaten Super Heavies such as Barry Beck and Dave Semenko. He put big time beatings on Willi Plett, Archie Henderson and administered possibly the worst beating anyone had ever given to Clark Gillies. His KO beating on John Hilworth is stuff legends are made of. Dropping him with a great right and then continuing to punch Hilworth while he was down and out.

3) Dave Brown
Big, mean and a lefty. Brown had the most lethal left hand hockey's ever seen not only did he have KO punching power but had precision accuracy in his punches. He had a great reach and used the skin tight left sleeve and baggy jersey tricks to his advantage at different parts of his career. He hardly ever squared off with his opponents & usually got the "jump" on them and only stopped punching when he felt he got his point across. His main weakness was a questionable chin and a style that left him open to a big punch also, he was a one dimensional fighter..toe to toe with the left and never used his right. His list of wins over solid heavies would include Gord Kluzak, Brian Curran, Dwight Schofield, a young Marty McSorley, Chris Nilan, Jay Wells, Scott Stevens, Mick Vukota, Gino Odjick and Randy McKay. Wins over aging Heavies includes Al Secord, Willi Plett and John Kordic. Young heavies such as Stu Grimson (busted his face), Darrin Kimble and Tie Domi. And some wins over Super Heavies Jim Kyte, Jay Miller (dropped him once), Shawn Cronin (dropped him once or twice), Ken Baumgartner (busted his face) and Jim McKenzie (dropped him).

4) Clark Gillies
Most likely the most feared hockey player ever. When ever his name is spoken the word feared is often used in the same sentence. He had KO punching power and usually fought only when he was enraged. He was solid on his skates, had good reach, great strength and a sturdy chin. The only knock on him was the fact that he had a long fuse. His wins over Solid Heavies include Terry O'Reilly, Dave Hoyda, Dave Williams & Ed Hospodar (dropped him and busted his face). His wins over Super Heavies include Dave Schultz, a young Al Secord, Stan Jonathan (dropped him) and arguable Behn Wilson (not sure if the Wilson punch at the end connected or not).

5) Bob Nystrom
A great fighter. Very fast hands and technically sound. He threw with either hand and was very good at tying up other fighters in an era when not many did which gave him a huge advantage. While he didn't have the hardest of punch he threw enough punches that kept his opponents off balance. He was a relentless fighter never giving up and had above average stamina. His wins over Solid Heavies include Mel Bridgman, Randy Holt, Tiger Williams, Ed Hospodar and Jay Wells and his wins over Super Heavies would include Harold Snepsts, Larry Playfair (busted his nose), John Wensink & Nick Fotiu.

6) Larry Playfair
Big and Strong. He had incredible reach and devastating right hand KO punch. The only knocks against him would be his long fuse and slow punch that would leave him open to punches, but when he nailed his opponents it usually stopped them in their tracks. His wins over Solid Heavies would include Ron Delorme, Tiger Williams, Terry O'Reilly, Gord Kluzak, Chris Nilan (one of the few who owned Nilan), and Kevin McClelland (dropped him with one punch). A list of Super Heavies that he's beaten would include Willi Plett, a young Dave Semenko (dropped him), John Wensink and Jimmy Mann.


7) Dave Semenko
Another Big and Strong player with good reach. He had good punching power and threw his punches pretty quickly and accurately for a guy his size and a sturdy chin. When he was younger he was as mean as they come, he believed in using any tactic necessary to get his point across. He would pull hair, elbows, kick, knee, throw punches over the linesmen and if his opponents didn't want to fight he would jump them anyways. His weakness were his stamina as he aged and he was ineffective when he fought just to fight. He was the enforcer of the Oilers and best when he fought for a reason and most teams did not cross the line knowing that. His wins over Solid Heavies include Gilles Bilodeau (aging), Jack McILHargey, Kim Clackson, Gary Howatt, Terry O'Reilly (dropped him), Ron Delorme (busted him open), Tiger Williams (busted him open), Randy Holt (busted him open numerous times), Jay Wells, Dwight Schofield, Chris Nilan and Bob McGill. A list of Super Heavies that he had beaten would include Jack Carlson (busted him open), Larry Playfair, Jimmy Mann, Dave Brown, Tim Hunter (busted him open a numerous times) & Joe Kocur (dropped him).

8) Marty McSorley
A warrior in the truest sense of the word. He seemed to get better each year he played both as a player and a fighter. His greatest asset was his stamina he would throw and throw and throw non stop and never really tire. He was very strong on his skates, he was very strong in general not too many who have ever played the game were stronger than Marty. He also had solid chin & and at times would seem to lose it, He would snap if the linesman came in too soon to stop his fights, he just never seemed satisfied at the end of his fights and wanted more especially through 1987 to 1993. He was another one of the players in the league who looked to lose the jersey and not tie down and wear goalie sized jersey's. Knocks against him would have been he didn't have quick punches and his punches did not have too much power behind them. A list of Solid Heavies he's beaten would include Darryl Stanley, Wendel Clark, Brian Curran, Gord Donnelly, Shane Churla, Mark Tinordi, Todd Ewen and Dennis Vial. A list of the Super Heavies he's beaten are Jim Kyte, Joe Kocur, Tim Hunter, Larry Playfair (aging), Ken Baumgartner (rookie), Craig Berube, Dave Brown, Gino Odjick, Stu Grimson, Tie Domi and Sandy McCarthy.

9) Joe Kocur
Without question the hardest puncher hockey has ever seen. When he came into the league he threw only with the right and then over time as his right hand became more and more messed up and other players being more sure to grab a hold of it he learned to throw effectively with his left. Kocur was strong, very strong even though he didn't look it. His punches were very accurate and had great balance on his skates. His chin was a bit suspect and the fact that he through nothing but bombs left him open to big punches as well. A list of wins over solid heavies: Cam Neely, Brad Maxwell (aging), Kevin McClelland, Brian Curran, Bob McGill, Rob Ray. Wins over Super Heavies: Jim Kyte (ended his reign as an elite heavy), Marty McSorley, Jay Miller, Tony Twist (rookie), Link Gaetz (rookie), Ken Baumgartner, Stu Grimson, Craig Berube, Donald Brashear & Bob Probert.

10) Tim Hunter
In an era of giants and one armed fighters along came Tim Hunter. Not the tallest but one of the strongest and most likely the best conditioned of the bunch. He was the best technical fighter of that era and possibly of all time. He used the cross grab technique to perfection and used his stamina and strength to buy him enough time that he could use that weapon. While he did not possess the hardest punch it had enough sting behind it and he had a very solid chin and possessed great balance. Wins over solid heavies are: Tiger Williams, Brian Curran, Kevin McClelland (a couple of very lop sided beatings) and Bob McGill. Wins over super heavies: Dave Semenko (gave him the worst beating of his career in 1985), Dave Brown, Marty McSorley, John Kordic (rookie) and Matt Johnson (rookie).

11) Jack Carlson
Great puncher, used both hands effectively and with precision. A WHA legend and arguably the best fighter in it's history. Holds wins over Nick Fotiu and a rookie Dave Semenko. In the NHL he holds a victory over a prime Glen Cochrane, Brad Marsh & Dave Hutchison. I wish I would have been around for when he was in the WHA or at least seen more footage of him when he was there. But from what I've seen, I could only imagine.

12) Nick Fotiu
A boxer, good balance and quick hands, He had a tendency to want to just wrestle down his opponents. His claims to fame would be his wins over Paul Holmgren and Behn Wilson. Also holds wins over Curt Bennett, Paul Baxter and Tim Hunter, had great fights with Jack McILHargey & Brad Maxwell. Unfortunately he had a long fuse and didn't go out looking for fights, if he did we might have seen an epic battle between himself and Gillies to crown the king of New York!

13) Willi Plett
A really good fighter early on in his career. Had good punch power and was strong and sturdy on his skates. He knew when to throw and knew when to hold on. He has wins over Behn Wilson, Jerry Korab (dropped him), Marty McSorley (rookie) and Glen Cochrane to name a few.

14) Stan Jonathan
The Bulldog! Short, stocky but strong and with a good hard accurate punch. He did very well for himself with a prime Behn Wilson & destroyed Pierre Bouchard.

15) Tony Twist
Even pre-steroids he was hard to beat. 1995-96 to the end of his career he was dominant, rag dolling his opponents while throwing looping right hands that if they connected would inflict serious damage ala Rob Ray. Had wins over Jim McKenzie, Stu Grimson, Bob Probert, Georges Laraque to name a few.

16) Tie Domi
Hardest head of the bunch. Nearly impossible to hurt. Has a very hard left and loves to use his low center of gravity to his advantage by using the now famous "spin cycle". He's beaten his fair share of heavyweights such as Ken Baumgartner, Gino Odjick, Bob Probert, etc.

17) Paul Holmgren
Big and Strong, Paul Holmgren was brought into Philly to replace an aging Dave Schultz and did so by beating up on the hammer. He also holds victories over Willi Plett, Nick Fotiu, Terry O'Reilly and a young Marty McSorley.

18) John Wensink
The wildman...He was one of the very few who have beaten Behn Wilson.

19) Stu Grimson
Got better with age. Very good technically and a very good and precise punch. Had wins over Marty McSorley, Bob Probert, Dave Brown, Georges Laraque to name a few.

20) Donald Brashear
The most hated man on FC. But can't deny his record and who he's beaten throughout his career. Too strong, too smart. Had wins over Bob Probert, Marty McSorley, Georges Laraque, Jim McKenzie (dropped him) to name a few.
"How about you and I go for a little canoe ride?!" - Dave Semenko

ILB
superstar
Posts 4274
ILB
08-12-04 03:32 PM - Post#306165    

Another great write-up. Excellent post.
"The Hand is fine, I got a shot of chromosome yesterday."

John Kordic on the status of his hand.

J_Carlson
superstar
Posts 3576
J_Carlson
08-12-04 04:15 PM - Post#306209    

Playfair27 that was a fine post. Good job. If you had seen Jack in his WHA days there is NO doubt he would be in your top 10.

You and Johnny (#8) were the only ones in this thread that have put him in your lists and I agree. Johnny must of seen him in the day?
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
08-12-04 04:32 PM - Post#306223    

Thanks dunlopyousuck, appreciate the years of the fights. I'll check them out over the weekend.

Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-12-04 04:59 PM - Post#306238    

LOL!!!!!!

the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-12-04 05:35 PM - Post#306253    

great job playfair. and some solid names on there as well. i would like to add the name of willi plett to the list of notables that your namesake larry playfair manhandled - not once, but twice. there were many more, but those fights particulaly come to mind. speaking of plett, one of his best wins imo was his beating of a very tough dave hoyda (he lost to hoyda as well tho)

also, i'm sure i'm going to hear from jcarlson (and maybe yourself) on this, but i can't give carlson a win over glen cochrane. i haven't watched that fight in a while, but i recall reviewing it at length once before, and i disagreed with that decision. from what i remember, i scored that fight a draw, posssibly edge cochrane. i suspect i'll be pulling that fight out again. lol

anyways, great list buddy.
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

J_Carlson
superstar
Posts 3576
J_Carlson
08-12-04 06:36 PM - Post#306276    

No Bulldog, you won't pull it out because of me. I don't want to ruin this thread. You are wrong though.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

espo
captain
Posts 996
08-12-04 06:50 PM - Post#306281    

I certainly would have Carlson there and would have put him on my list if had thought about it longer than 2 minutes. Every time I make a list it's different. I always love just watching him skate around the ice, just looking for trouble in the old WHA tapes. Same way Fotiu used to look as a Ranger.
Playfair27
captain
Posts 654
Playfair27
08-12-04 09:15 PM - Post#306333    

Thanks guys.

Bulldog; you know I even had that writen down but totally forgot to put Plett on there for Playfair.

Sadly if asked to do another top 20 list in a few months my list would be tad different.
"How about you and I go for a little canoe ride?!" - Dave Semenko

the hammer
superstar
Posts 3916
08-12-04 09:36 PM - Post#306336    

I would have added Carlson in my top 20 also but where his best years were in the WHA i wasn't sure if this top 20 list included guys from the WHA. Curt Fraser is another guy i always seem to forget about. He may have been on my top 20 or at least got an honorable mention. Shit there's so many great fighters from the 70's + early 80's that it gets harder to list them once you get the top ten out of the way.
J_Carlson
superstar
Posts 3576
J_Carlson
08-12-04 10:17 PM - Post#306348    

Quote:

Shit there's so many great fighters from the 70's + early 80's that it gets harder to list them once you get the top ten out of the way.




That is why I can't give a definitive list. Exactly why. There are WAY too many that deserve it and in my opinion it all comes down to favoritism in some way or another. It makes for interesting reading though. Some of the posts here are good. It would be interesting to read why some feel the guy deserves it.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Hike
Veteran
Posts 6937
08-13-04 06:30 AM - Post#306420    

I concur, there are some great posts in this thread. That was a well-thoughout list Playfair27.

Dog - I think it was me and you that discussed that Carlson/Cochrane fight. I think we eventually settled on a draw in an disappointing fight between two greats.

It is really difficult ranking these guys as it is so subjective. If you think about it, there really isn't much that separates a number 5 from a number 15.

I never thought about Jack Carlson because my mind immediately went to NHL, so Carlson tends to get overlooked. His NHL career wasn't really that spectacular in comparison to what he did in the WHA. I know he had a career altering back injury which left him a shadow of what he was, but no doubt a prime Carlson would have been a handful for anyone. Unfortunately, there is so little video of Carlson in the WHA and his NHL career probably wasn't quite good enough to get him a top 10 ranking.
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment

Anonymous


08-13-04 04:35 PM - Post#306977    

I agree with you most of your solid analysis.

Did Behn and Probert ever go with each other?

I disagree with your conclusion about Jack Carlson. He was much like Holmgren and was a bit of a bully. I definately think Kyte was tougher than him.

Your post has a few errors in it. Dave Semenko sucker punched Terry O'Reilly after he tried to trip Stan Jonathan because he was kicking the crap out of a much bigger Don Jackson. O'Reilly and Semenko had a hold of each other in a very non-aggressive way and it did not appear to me that either one of them were thinking of going with each other. When Semenko unfairly trys to trip Jonathan, O'Reilly swings around slightly in front of him to prevent him from tripping his teammate and (if you look closely)O'Reilly is not even looking at Semenko, Semenko punches him in the face and hits him several more times (something O'Reilly would never do). I think Semenko acted like a pussy, being 6'3 and 215 pounds vs. O'Reilly 6'1, 199. In addition, it was widely known that O'Reilly had his shoulder in a brace.

Also, O'Reilly owned Holmgren. He, too, was a bit of an opportunist and a bully. A much better fighter in my opinion was Mel Bridgeman.

O'Reilly also easily beat Clark Gillies twice (the other fight was a nothing fight) and lost twice. I do think Gillies was tougher, bigger and stronger, but O'Reilly took everything he had, came back for more and beat Gillies.

By the way, I met Terry once and he thought the most interesting match of all time would be Probert in his prime vs. Brashear in his prime. He thought they were both very strong, had a long reach and were tough as nails.
johnz
legend
Posts 13792
johnz
08-13-04 04:47 PM - Post#306984    

wilson and probie had a hug fest in'87....nothing happened
"Pitching is really just an internal struggle between pitcher and his stuff. If my curve ball is breaking and I'm throwing it where I want, the batter is irrelevant." - Steve Stone

Playfair27
captain
Posts 654
Playfair27
08-13-04 06:21 PM - Post#307034    

joalkel, It was also widely known if you end up with Semenko be ready, much like if you would be careful if you ended up with Brown, and young Probert etc. That fight was very early in the season on November 12, 1981 didn't he put on the brace later on??

As far as Semenko being a pussy...Funny out of all the people gracious enough to allow Bulldog time to interview them had a different a opinion of Semenko than you. They must be wrong!

If you have all these problems with my post which were totally based on "my opinion" Do your own top 20 list give reason's as to why and whom they beat, I'm curious to see a list of yours.
"How about you and I go for a little canoe ride?!" - Dave Semenko

Anonymous


08-13-04 08:20 PM - Post#307112    

I think anytime you sucker a player, regardless of their size you are a pussy (I'm not talking about his ability to fight). It reminds me a bit of Garry Howatt vs. Wayne Cashman in the 80 playoff series, when he suckered Cash. I could understand, but not agree with, why Howatt would sucker Cash (he's much smaller and Cash could and did kick his ass) but for a guy as big as Semenko makes me wonder.

In terms of picking the top 20, I think it's very difficult to compare a guys John Ferguson, Gordie Howe, Dan Maloney, Dave Schultz, Terry O'Reilly, Clark Gillies, Bobby Nystrom, John Wensink, Stan Jonathan, Bob Gassoff, Paul Holmgren, Behn Wilson, later to Dave Brown, Bob Probert, Tie Domi, Jay Miller, Cam Neeley, Lyndon Byers, Glen Cochrane, Donald Brashear, Marty McSorley, Tony Twist, Stu Grimson, or back to Nick Fotiu and a little forward to John Kordic. Where do you stop?

It was different times for a whole class of fighters. There roles, over the year, change for different players. Example: Stan Mikita was one of the dirtiest players in the league to get where he ultimately ended up as a solid producer, not involved in the daily grind of kickin' ass.

There is different motivation for each person in each fight. There were goons in the game just to fight. They'd be on the ice just to fight. Some guys would be on the ice one or two shifts and fight someone who has played a whole game as if their paycheck depended on it. They are exhausted, possibly hurt or just not into fighting. Are they sticking up for a teammate or trying to win a game? It depends on a lot of things, so I have a hard time trying to match up today's athletes with players going back as far as the 50's like Gordie.

I thought you did an excellent job. I do think, when you are referring to players like O'Reilly getting beat, I don't know of how many times a player like Semenko or Behn Wilson would tap you on the should, let you get set and take the first punch like O'Reilly. Same thing with Gillies. If he wanted to be a dick and a bully, he could have pounded people's lights out without ever giving them a shot. O'Reilly could have taken the first four punches on Semenko and pounded the shit out of him too. Or, you could be like Garry Howatt and have to pull everyone's hair to win your fights.

When I read interview from people like Mel Bridgeman and Tiger Williams about players like O'Reilly, it makes me appreciate the kind of person the fighter was and that he had a sense of fair play and honor when taking up the sword with another player.

So, regardless of whomever you were referring to about a Sememko interview, I think he was a pussy in that particular instance and I've seen a few others just like from him as well.
Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-13-04 09:29 PM - Post#307170    

Joal: Playfair is easily one of the best posters on here. Nobody was talking shit about O'Reilly. He gets nothing but respect on this site. I suggest you do a search on Terry O on FC, and then come back to us. We've heard it all here.

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-14-04 04:37 AM - Post#307329    

Here's my TOP 20 ALLTIME LIST....I KNOW MANY WILL DISAGREE

1. BOB PROBERT..fought anyway you wanted & usually won. Whether the cocaine was a factor or not, he was THE MAN to beat for about 8 years, took on all comers & won. Greatest fighter alltime...NUFF SAID!
2. DAVE BROWN..best lefty alltime. Could he throw a right? Who knows, his fights didn't last that long. Great KO power..best enforcer alltime, knew his job & got it done. Some of his more memorable victims were..McPhee, Miller, Coxe, Caufield, Nilan, Kyte, Odjick & Wells.
3. BOBBY NYSTROM..Ok, not many will agree with such a high ranking as #3 alltime, but look at his record, he was awesome! Great toe to toe fighter. Some of his more noteable fights were vs Bridgman, stood in with 6'4" Playfair & hammered Hoyda, Dykstra, Korn & slugged it out with G.McPhee. Too bad his early footage is not available, but I believe I've seen enough to rank him #3 alltime.
4. TIM HUNTER..Best conditioned player alltime. Hunter was strong as an ox, could fight toe to toe or wrestle for 2 minutes. Incredible stamina! Had some great wars vs Oiler's Semenko & McClelland. One of the most under rated fighters because he played in Calgary.
5. NICK FOTIU..One of the most intimidating goons ever. Yes I say goon, because Fotiu had no skill, he was on the ice for one purpose, kickin' ass! His biggest fight was vs Behn Wilson & Fotiu ended it with solid right punch. Dusted another Flyer Paul Holmgren & had two slugfests with one time Canuck enforcer Jack McIlhargey, each winning one. Toughest Ranger ever, & one of the most popular. Apparently a golden gloves boxer.
6. STAN JONATHAN..Toughest "small" guy ever. Could take a punch with the best of them & deliver a solid punch as well. Beat B.Wilson & his most noteworthy fight was vs Pierre Bouchard in the playoffs. Once scored 27 goals, not bad for a tough guy!
8. CLARK GILLIES.."Jethro" was one scary dude. Had great fued vs O'Reilly & had a one win, one loss record vs Behn Wilson. Hammered Schultz & broke Hospodar's jaw. Easily disposed of Boston tough guy Al Secord. Never had over 99 pims in a year. Four Stanley Cups, & two 1st team All Stars along with a Hockey Hall of Fame inductee. Great career!!
9. BEHN WILSON..Reluctanly, I have to have him at #9. He was a terror, & would fight anyone, anytime. Great strength, decent stamina & a hard puncher. KO'd John Hilworth, one of his many victims. Lost to Fotiu in a great bout, also lost to Wensink & Jonathan. Very dirty & vicious player. Would just as soon carve your eye out, than punch you in the face. Some of his other more memorable battles were vs O'Reilly, Gillies, McGill, Semenko & Wendel Clark.
10. LARRY PLAYFAIR..One of the toughest players in the late '70s to early '80s. Great size, 6'4" Playfair was considered huge when he broke in. A couple of his more memorable fights were vs Nystrom, Nilan, KO'd McClelland, &
his biggest loss was to LA Kings Brian MacLellan.
11. DAVE SEMENKO..One of best goons & most feared men in hockey. Gretzky's bodyguard in the early '80s. KO power & dirty as hell. Great wars vs Tim Hunter & Basil McRae. Out powered Canuck tough guy Ron Delorme. Got his head hammered by Chicago's Behn Wilson in the playoffs, & Tim Hunter thumped him bad a couple of times. Unfortunately, not much of his early '80s or WHA footage is available.
12. MARTY MCSORLEY..Another player from those Stanley Cup teams in Edmonton. Marty's stamina is second only to Tim Hunter. Had so many memorable battles with the likes of Brashear, McCarthy, Probert, Odjick etc..He fought a lot more in LA than in Edmonton. Great fight card! One of the nicest guys off the ice, but a menace on the ice. Played twice with Pittsburgh, Edmonton & Los Angeles.
13. DONALD BRASHEAR..One of my alltime favorites, & one of the toughest guys alltime. Love him or hate him, he keeps on winning. Has a great KO left hand, strong as a bull & good stamina. Rarely loses, & has KO'd many opponents. Has one of the best win/loss records & a great fight card to boot. Should be higher on the list.
14. TIE DOMI..Another guy with a terrific fight card. Has KO power & a head harder then stone. Can take a punch better than anyone. Dropped many guys in his 1st couple of seasons. Awesome fued with Rob Ray, the best in hockey! Many great battles vs Brashear, Odjick, McCarthy & Probert. Domi vs Jonathan fight would have been awesome!
15. JIM KYTE..Maybe the second toughest guy in the early 80's. Kyte had great reach & a hard punch. Some of his more noticable fights were vs Kluzak, KO'd Butcher, Kocur 3x, McSorley 2x, & Brown 2x. Really went downhill after the Kocur KO. Wore hearing aids in his helmet.
16. JOE KOCUR..Hardest puncher alltime. Kocur has many KO's to his name, & a battered right hand to prove it. Would take a couple of punches just to land THE BOMB. Dropped by Coxe & Raglan. Cousin of Wendel Clark. Brother Kerry was a journeyman tough guy in the minors for years. Known mostly for his KO of Jim Kyte. Other noteable fights vs McSorley, Probert, Kyte, Gill, Dalgarno, Ray & Coxe.
17. CURT FRASER..One of the toughest Canuck's alltime! Fraser was a boxer & had KO power. Dropped Dave Farrish with one punch. Had a wicked fight vs Behn Wilson & many fights vs Bob Probert. Broke Shayne Corson's jaw. Beat Flames Willi Plett 3x in the opening round of the '82 playoffs. Born in Cincinatti, a diabetic.
18. JOHN KORDIC..Another lefty. Energic fighter who threw fast & often. Man handled Jay Miller in their first few fights. Many wars vs Basil McRae, Miller & Kimble. Not a feared tough guy, but also a dirty player. Possibly a pillow puncher, who feared Probert. A very talented defenseman in junior. Was really fucked up at the end of his career from drugs. Died by the sword. RIP
19. PAUL HOLMGREN..Paul Bunyan on skates. Holmgren was massive when he broke in the league. Hammered Schultz in his return to Philly. Had a couple of beauty fights vs Hospodar & Fotiu. Battled Canuck tough guy Harold Snepsts in 1980 bench clearing. Worst loss was a beating he took from Canadien's tough guy Kent Carlson, who broke Holmgren's jaw. One of the more talented guys on my list with 163 goals including playoffs. Played in the '81 allstar game.
20. SANDY MCCARTHY..Came in with a bang, hammering many opponents in his rookie season 93-94. Beat the shit out of tough guys, Ray 2x, Bomber 2x, Domi, Leroux, McKenzie, Probert & Simon. Fought his best friend Gino Odjick to a draw. His worst loss was a beating he took from Brashear. Would be much higher on the list had his career not gone downhill the way it has. Very good fight card.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-14-04 04:39 AM - Post#307331    

Duke, nice list!! However, you have stated several times in this thread Brashear is a top 5 fighter yet you have him at number 14!? Did you think it over or something? LOL
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-14-04 04:50 AM - Post#307332    

Tough to say..give it another year or two & he may be #2.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
08-14-04 05:59 AM - Post#307344    

Badduke, good thought out list. Fair assessment. Was curious to see how high you rank Brashear but you had him down to the mid-teens. Glad you put your thought into it.

You mention and "enforcers fight card and win/loss % are most important to you". Kyte can be there on your first criteria but the second he can't. Many many losses he has and more than average bad!

Good read on your reasoning/rationale.

Love this thread!

Anonymous


08-14-04 06:38 AM - Post#307349    

There are comments like mine about Semenko??? I don't think so. I never suggested anyone was talking shit about anyone either.
J_Carlson
superstar
Posts 3576
J_Carlson
08-14-04 09:49 AM - Post#307388    

Badduke14,

Pauls nose (not jaw) was broken in that fight with Kent Carlson and I don't beleive it was from a punch. It started flowing after Paul took a header to the ice during the fight while grappling with Carlson. So I believe he broke it at that point.

BTW, in the Star and Tribune the next day Holmgren was quoted as saying that it was the first time he had his nose broken in a fight. Considering he played in the WHA and Philly I thought it was pretty incredible.

Nice descriptions on your list. Those are interesting to read. Atleast you know why folks put their selections where they do.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Butcher99
hall of famer
Posts 6504
Butcher99
08-14-04 09:54 AM - Post#307391    

Badduke

I know Fotiu never fought Bridgeman, but there is that semi-famous picture where they are squared off and have the gloves dropped, with Mel's ugly mug looking kind of..well scared. What ever came of that.

the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-14-04 10:01 AM - Post#307392    

butcher: bridgman was a helluva fighter, but he freely admitted to being scared of fighting 2 guys in particular:

1. battleship kelly
2. nick fotiu

in no particular order
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

Playfair27
captain
Posts 654
Playfair27
08-14-04 10:13 AM - Post#307396    

joalkel, O'Reilly jumped Carriere (sp?) O'Reilly had his gloves off and threw the first punch of the fight while Carriere was getting up and square to O'Reilly. He jumped Paul Holmgren in their second bout one night in Boston. It was along the boards and O'Reilly just starting firing punches at Holmgren while he was along the boards fighting for the puck and O'Reilly also mugged the super heavy in Bob Gainey.

Now is Terry O'Reilly a pussy or a bully in doing so? In my eyes no. It's a fight. In an era in which these guys hated each other unlike todays choreographed fighting age. But in saying that if a guy does this every fight then and only then should their character be judged. I don't think there is one fighter ever who has never jumped or mugged an opponent ever.

Hell if Jim McKenzie once jumped a guy and he's the most gentlemanly fighter ever in my eyes than I'm pretty sure every other tough guy that has fought in the NHL has as well.
"How about you and I go for a little canoe ride?!" - Dave Semenko

Playfair27
captain
Posts 654
Playfair27
08-14-04 10:15 AM - Post#307400    

BTW, that's my last post on that subject in this thread..don't won't to ruin a great thread with some good info.

Badduke great job on your list!
"How about you and I go for a little canoe ride?!" - Dave Semenko

Anonymous


08-14-04 12:06 PM - Post#307452    

O'Reilly never jumped Carriere, who took boxing lessons often. I have the fights on game tapes and you are incorrect. O'Reilly did go after Holmgren only after Holmgren went after both Gilbert and O'Reilly at the same time. And with regard to Gainey, he bumbed O'Reilly after the whistle, and then as O'Reilly tried to push him away he stayed on him side by side rather than skate away. O'Reilly pounded him. I'm glad this is your last comment on this.
Badduke14
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Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-14-04 04:23 PM - Post#307554    

Nicky, I think you under estimated how tough a PRIME Kyte was. The guy beat Brown, McSorley, Kluzak, Kocur along with KO'ing Butcher with 1 punch. His early Jets fights are what gives him a good ranking. Forget his last few NHL years, & his IHL fights...he was way past his prime then.
What do you think about Nystrom as #3?
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Playfair27
captain
Posts 654
Playfair27
08-14-04 04:43 PM - Post#307565    

I'm not letting a conterdictering homer like yourself get in the last word on this one.

O'Reilly threw punches at Carriere before he was set. yes or no? I have the fights as well everyone who has the Bruins tape has them.

What difference is the Gainey incident than the Semenko incident other than the outcome being much different? If O'Reilly didn't want trouble he should have skated away much like you say Gainey should have skated away. So Semenko tried to trip up Jonathan O'Reilly grabs a hold of Semenko, Semenko grabs O'Reilly by the back of the head with his gloves still on and then throws punches.
the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-14-04 04:58 PM - Post#307571    

playfair and joal: not to be a dick here, but if you guys want to debate this issue any further, then either start a separate thread, or take your differences to the zone. i want to keep this thread directed at the original topic - hopefully we'll get some more top20 lists to mull over.

thanks (in advance) for observing this request ...
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

Anonymous


08-14-04 05:51 PM - Post#307596    

You were not at the fight and there is no video tape of Semenko holding the back of O'Reilly's head, so nice try. Also, they were already holding on to each other.

I have no idea what you are talking about with Gainey.

Look at the tapes again of Carriere. You don't know what you are talking about. Your favorite fighter is probably Garry Howatt.

I thought you'd keep your mouth shut on this subject but you obviously have person problems to want to call me a homer for disagreeing with your position.

Also, what the hell does conterdictering mean? Are you stupid? Or maybe you too were in a fight with Sememko and he hit you with a cheap shot without you looking.

I agree with the previous poster that we should not pollute this thread.

So, piss off.
Anonymous


08-14-04 05:54 PM - Post#307599    

I think you are right about Kyte. He was one tough fighter.
Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
08-14-04 06:00 PM - Post#307600    

I keep hearing about Kyte beating Kocur, but it seems like some people have Joey dropping Kyte in tha fight. Which one is it?

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-14-04 06:06 PM - Post#307601    

They fought 3 or 4 times. I have 3 for sure on my Kyte tape.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Playfair27
captain
Posts 654
Playfair27
08-14-04 07:28 PM - Post#307637    

Badduke14 and Posux;
It's hard to remember off hand but the fight behind the Jets net in Winnipeg during the 1985-86 season was the one where it looked like Kyte was getting the better of Kocur, but Kocur threw that one bomb at the end that if it landed might have been the reason that Kyte fell and would then be a tko win for Kocur. But the camera was too far back to be 100% certain. It's much like the Gillies vs. Wilson fight in 1984. If Wilson landed that one punch at the end it would be win Wilson, if not win Gillies who controlled the fight.

Bulldog, will do.
"How about you and I go for a little canoe ride?!" - Dave Semenko

steverooney
veteran
Posts 266
08-14-04 08:31 PM - Post#307652    

Here is my list. Stopped going off memory alone and dusted off the tapes,traded for video and did some PM with some of the folks here at FC for info and first hand accounts to come up with the list. Tried to also give reasons for each ranking.


1) Wilson - Big, strong, powerfull and crazy/mean. Great wins over numerous all time greats including O'Reilly,Fraser,McSorley,Semenko,Nilan,Plett and most of all Gillies 2x ( as stated before,I firmly beleive Wilson landed that short right that totally stopped Gillies in his tracks and put him down ).Had a great battle with Jonathan that IMO, was a solid draw taking into count actual punches thrown and landed. Also had another short bout with Jonathan that was either a draw or slight edge to Wilson for landing the only shots in the tilt. Overall I think you can count his losses on one hand. The only top guy that was never,IMO,been beaten soundly,Ko,TKO or bloodied. I only seen him down one time and that was the Wensink fight.As I posted in another thread...Something to think about and is rarely if ever mentioned,Wilson was a barely 21 year old ROOKIE when he fought a prime Fotiu and only 20 years of age when we got decisioned by Wensink even though he cut and landed more than Wensink. IMO a more seasoned,say 1980-81 version of Wilson that took apart Gillies,beat 29 yr. old O'Reilly 2x,decisioned a prime Fraser and easily beat Minors legend Archie Henderson 2x, turns the tables in each of the bouts with Wensink and Fotiu.Most of Wilson's few losses or debatable fights were when he was short of his 22nd birthday. After his first year it seemed to me anyway, that he learned to tie up the other guy a little better and gained the much needed NHL experience.He had some close fights as his career progressed,but never was he embarrassed or took a bad loss.I think all in all the best ever.

2) Probert - I know he is a consensus #1, but I think the guy ahead of him was better at avoiding the surprising losses and taking punishment. Great attribute associated with Probert is that he avenged MOST losses,but in order to avenge,you have to lose first. His record for longevity speaks for itself.Greats wins over most modern heavyweights including a slugfeast with Dave Brown.Too many victims to list.

3) Fotiu - #3 ranking may be a surprise coming from me.For now I stick with the ranking. I base this position on his NHL days and do not include WHA days. Feared by many and alot were afraid to try him.Lower total of fights are naturally a concern but I think he did enough in the big fights against the better guys to be judged.His beating of Holmgren and win over a rookie Wilson are great examples.Notable wins:McIlhargey,Wilson,Holmgren,Coxe,Hunter,Nilan,etc.Lower fight total is naturally do to most being afraid to drop the gloves with him. Another who never really took a beating,TKO,KO or bloodied. Losses were never anything too severe.

4) Brown - Similar to Probert,beat just about all of the moden heavyweights....too many to list. Also had a few memorable losses.Went back and forth on #3 or #4 ranking,but put him behind Fotiu based on pure fighting ability.

5) Gillies - Very well could be the most feared guy ever.When he was interested in doing damage ,he usually did. Unforgettable big wins over Hospodar,Hoyda and Jonathan.Some trouble with O'Reilly...have to put the best lefty Brown ahead of him in the rankings.

6) Nystrom - Wins include:Wensink,Bridgeman,Snepsts,Playfair and Fotiu in a very short fight. Could take a punch and keep coming...witness the Cochrane and Playfair bouts.Lacked power which I think seperates him from the top 5, but his RESULTS are REAL and not "woulda-coulda-shoulda". IMO, on their best day and in their prime the guys ranked ahead would come out on top.

7) Kocur - Great win/loss %.Could probably count clear losses on two hands. IMO,got edges in all bouts with Probert.Took some bad losses with Raglan,Coxe and McGill.

8) Playfair - Wins include Semenko,O'Reilly,Wensink,Plett to name a few. Took a few surprising losses ( Steve Rooney as an example...LOL ) I rank slightly behind Nystrom and Kocur due to a few things...quality wins by Nystrom and Kocur and their win /loss % was better I believe. Took too many shots and led with his face it seemed.

9) Cochrane - Big wins over Hunter and Nystrom. Lost very few while prime.Not many could throw them like Cochrane.Playfair with the higher ranking only for the power advantage.

10) McSorley - Wins include: Kocur,Brown,Playfair and again,most modern heavyweights.


11) Stan Jonathan
12) Paul Holmgren
13) Curt Fraser
14) Jay Wells
15) Tim Hunter
16) Dave Semenko
17) John Wensink
18) Donald Brashear
19) Craig Berube
20) Tie Domi

H.M.: Terry O'Reilly
Dave Schultz
Stu Grimson
Tony Twist
Dan Maloney
Bob Gassoff *** what coulda been???
steverooney
veteran
Posts 266
08-14-04 08:38 PM - Post#307653    

Playfair is correct. I see it the same way,Kocur losing the fight but drops Kyte for the win.Very similar to the referenced Wilson/Gillies fight.
Anonymous


08-14-04 10:09 PM - Post#307700    

Do you think Jonathan, who I love, is a better fighter than Brashear??? I think Brashear would kill him, as well as several of the guys on the list. I know about his incident with McSorely, but did they ever fight before that, and if so, who won?

Also, I've seen Basil McRae fight several times. He seemed like a pretty tough customer. What is his fight record like and why is he rarely mentioned?
the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-14-04 10:26 PM - Post#307719    

joakel: mcrae, although entertaining with his handspeed and willingness, was never considered a serious threat. his most popular opponent was another soft puncher - john kordic. mcrae gets plenty of ink here. i would suggest that if you want to discuss basil's career, you start a separate thread. as i said earlier, lets keep this topic on top20 fighters. mcrae was a top2O pillowpuncher bro .....
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

johnz
legend
Posts 13792
johnz
08-14-04 10:32 PM - Post#307725    

joalkel: you wanna talk mcrae, fine, he was game....but you better start out aknowledging the guy who owned him...
"Pitching is really just an internal struggle between pitcher and his stuff. If my curve ball is breaking and I'm throwing it where I want, the batter is irrelevant." - Steve Stone

Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
08-14-04 11:19 PM - Post#307754    

joalkel, IMHO a guy who is 5'7 175 HAS to be a better fighter than a guy 6'2 pushing 240 etc... I think Jonathan proved he was a better "fighter" per say as he took on much bigger and stronger competition regulalry. Brash is usually stronger than everyone he fights and fights a lot more defensively. If that style is better than so be it. Would Brash beat Jonathan...probably but it does not matter because you really cant compare two generations. Brash has huge advantages that Jonathan never had. and BTW I agree with Playfair and you are a homer.

Anyway back to the top 20. johnz dont even tell me you want to bring up Manson here. He is not even close to belonging.
chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-14-04 11:24 PM - Post#307760    

Johnz, let's hear your top 20 list already.
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

steverooney
veteran
Posts 266
08-15-04 04:44 AM - Post#307835    

O.K. lets try this :
Do I think Jonathan is better than Brashear....yes
Do I think Brashear would kill Jonathan........no
Who won between Brashear and McSorley before the "incident".... Brashear did.

Now I'll expand in reverse order.

Brashear beat a way out of "prime" McSorley a few times before the "incident". Those times they fought, McSorley was around 35-37 yrs old and Brashear was at the top of his game. Brashear beat an old Probert a few times, do you think Brashear should be ranked higher?

Why don't I think Brashear would "kill" any of the fighters ranked above him? IMO I think all were better. Two guys I hope you don't think Brashear would kill was Probert and Kocur.Brashear ran from Probert and didn't drop his gloves the other time when Probert was in or close to prime.Brashear lost decisions to Kocur 2x and was calling the linesman in on their last fight when Kocur was mid 30's. You may be referring to guys like Wells and Fraser when you say "he could kill other guys". Those 2 may be surprise picks to you. Did you ever see Fraser and Wells fight when they played on the West coast? They could stay with and /or beat anyone in their time,especially Fraser.Fraser had a list of victims that included prime Probert,Kocur,Plett 6x,Wells,along with a spirited draw with Nystrom and IMO a close loss to Wilson. I don't know about some of his earlier fights in his Vancouver days,but if he did as well as he did with his known fights, a case could be made that he could ranked even higher based on his results and ability.
Wells was also impressive with decisions of Probert,Plett,Brown,Semenko,Hunter 2x and a 32 year old Fotiu on his resume along with a TKO of your mentioned Basil McRae. These 2 guys are IMO THE MOST UNDERATED GUYS EVER. Because of where they played,limited fights on video they are either overlooked or are rarely given their due. The only thing that can't be overlooked is that their results speak volumes of how good they were.

Jonathan/Brashear.....
Let me guess we are going to go back to the size debate. We have one of the acknowledged all time best still fighting in the NHL....Domi. Almost every win Domi has had was against bigger fighters.He has beat just about every heavy weight from his era,including Brashear. Jonathan had to deal with the same size disadvantage in his era and did quite well.I think Jonathan is a better 2 fisted fighter with more power than Domi. Jonathan rarely lost a fight...maybe 3-4 (depending on perspectives)in about 80 fights.With guys like Gillies, Wilson,Bridgman,Schultz on his fight card,to me ,that is pretty impressive.How do I see a fight between the two in their prime? Sure Brashear has the size and strength,but hockey fights are not won on size alone..... otherwise guys like Chara ,Worrell and McKenna should be ranked in the top 10 or higher.The fight would probably go how most Brashear fights go,him trying to lock up then take advantage. The difference I see is that Jonathan could throw with power in both hands and Brashear would not be able to lock up a "strong" hand as he usually tries to do. Brashear is reluctant to trade and get hit and I think that Jonathan could throw enough with either hand, to keep Brashear from taking control. That is my take on their hypothetical fight....but lets face it ,it is all opinion.

Size to me never ment a whole lot in hockey fights as I said.All you have to do is look at other guys like Nystrom,Fraser,Wells,Kocur to name a few.I try to use quality wins/losses , win/loss %, respect/fear and just an overall look at the competion available during each players era .I have never cared if a guy was small in stature,was a "one armed" fighter,etc as long as he got positive results when dropping the gloves. All the guys I listed previously were not big men in todays game, but along with Jonathan and Domi were great fighters that had the results against some great competition to warrant my ranking .

Look I am actually one of the few at this site that likes Brashear and rank him.I'm in no way bashing him. I recognize his strength ,size,and winning record in today's NHL. Hell I root for him to win every fight since he is on my hometown team. I say his record since say 95-96 to now is very good . I have him ranked top 20 all time,but for now that is as far as he goes. IMO the guys ranked in front of him were better.
the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-15-04 08:20 AM - Post#307846    

Quote:

I think Jonathan is a better 2 fisted fighter with more power than Domi. Jonathan rarely lost a fight...maybe 3-4 (depending on perspectives)in about 80 fights.With guys like Gillies, Wilson,Bridgman,Schultz on his fight card,to me ,that is pretty impressive.How do I see a fight between the two in their prime? Sure Brashear has the size and strength,but hockey fights are not won on size alone..... otherwise guys like Chara ,Worrell and McKenna should be ranked in the top 10 or higher.The fight would probably go how most Brashear fights go,him trying to lock up then take advantage. The difference I see is that Jonathan could throw with power in both hands and Brashear would not be able to lock up a "strong" hand as he usually tries to do. Brashear is reluctant to trade and get hit and I think that Jonathan could throw enough with either hand, to keep Brashear from taking control.




a correct analysis.

Quote:

Size to me never ment a whole lot in hockey fights as I said.All you have to do is look at other guys like Nystrom,Fraser,Wells,Kocur to name a few.I try to use quality wins/losses , win/loss %, respect/fear and just an overall look at the competion available during each players era .I have never cared if a guy was small in stature,was a "one armed" fighter,etc as long as he got positive results when dropping the gloves. All the guys I listed previously were not big men in todays game, but along with Jonathan and Domi were great fighters that had the results against some great competition to warrant my ranking .




another correct analysis.

Quote:

Look I am actually one of the few at this site that likes Brashear and rank him.I'm in no way bashing him. I recognize his strength ,size,and winning record in today's NHL. Hell I root for him to win every fight since he is on my hometown team. I say his record since say 95-96 to now is very good . I have him ranked top 20 all time,but for now that is as far as he goes. IMO the guys ranked in front of him were better.




and correct again (except for the part about liking brashear - i think he's an opportunistic fighter, and represents everything that's wrong with the role of the "enforcer" in today's game. that aside, he's still a smart fighter and has the physical strength and defensive skills to dictate how most of his fights will end up and for that reason, he's a tough opponent. his winning record within a reasonably good fight card shouldn't be overlooked}.

great post rooney! ....
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

steverooney
veteran
Posts 266
08-15-04 08:32 AM - Post#307854    

Bulldog....

Thanks for the comments and you are right ,I used the wrong choice of words there. You summed up what I meant to say**.

**(he's still a smart fighter and has the physical strength and defensive skills to dictate how most of his fights will end up and for that reason, he's a tough opponent. his winning record within a reasonably good fight card shouldn't be overlooked).
Hike
Veteran
Posts 6937
08-15-04 09:00 AM - Post#307858    

Standing O for you steverooney, some nice posts here.
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment

Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
08-15-04 10:13 AM - Post#307881    

Badduke, Nystrom is in my top 5 and I have him one mere notch ahead of Gillies for my rankings. Your list is a fair assessment of the fighters nad I was curious where you put Brashear. We're pretty much on the same page with guys going up and down.

Still hoping you can answer my question about the other guys I asked about.

Johnz, would be curious who's your top 20.

Also, couldn't ever get it out of Mike after years of trying but am real curious as to his top 20 all time!

johnz
legend
Posts 13792
johnz
08-16-04 09:17 AM - Post#308318    

#1)Probert..sheer dominance in his prime, which lasted for about 8 years, and even had some impressive twilight years with the Hawks. Aprime Probie beat all the other top heavies for the most part, and evenged 99% of his losses. Strong and technical, and all together dominant.
#2)Behn Wilson...not having as long a prime prevents him from being #1, but had the meanness, power, and finishing ability, and took on all the heavies. Unlike Probert, he never really got his ass kicked; can't recall any MAJOR losses.
#3)Clark Gillies...another prime fighter with power and intimidation. During his prime, was feared, and was right there with #2 in Wilson, and had some close bouts with him as well.
#4) Bobby Nystrom...in his prime, had a great win %, and it needs to be pointed out that his fight along the boards with Cochrane was an older, pat his prime Nystrom, and he still did well. Was always a game, toe to toe typer who has the wins.
#5) Curt Fraser...who ever really beat the snot out of this guy?? If we talk intimidation, destructive power, and win%, you have Curt Fraser. Consistently beat the top heavies like Plett, Sneptts, had a great toe toe defens-less fight with Behn Wilson, and took all Wilson could give for the draw, etc. Had incredible strength for a guy who was barely 6'0. Remember the Sauve/ Tiger Williams brawl?? Flipped Larry Playfair over his shoulders, and Playfair goes 6'3 or so, and roughly 220lbs. Perhaps the most under rated guy on the board.
6) Dave Brown...dominant lefty with vicios KO power who finished off his opponents better then anyone. Like Probie, he didnt like getting hit in the face, and if you did, you might get him, though few did. Great victories in his prime, though his lst of victims is'nt as impressive as the ones before him.
#7)Larry Playfair...big strong guy who had unbelievable power and great strength. At times was succeptable to losing against guys he should beat(Mclelland, Nilan, etc), but was still a great intimidator who won a lot more then he lost.
#8) Al Secord...from '80-'83, you can count on one hand how many losses he had. Another HUGELY under rated fighter due to lack of taped games, but his left was vicious and powerful, and had superior strength to wrestle and out muscle his guy. From 81-83, a lot of people considered him the champ.
#9) Marty Mc Sorely...longevity as a great fighter, not to many big losses, and great stamina.
#10)Dave Manson....I though about this and the eyes that would roll when they read this. But after seeing others lists, I believe he belongs. Another guy who didnt lose in his prime, and had quickness in punches coupled with great power. Beat Odjick, Twist, Paterson, and struck fear unlike any other with an unpredictable switch that at times went off without warning(See Jay Wells interview/The Bulldog). Its time this guy gets some credit.
#11 Fotiu( Has his share of losses, but great prime fighter),#12 Kocur( greatest puching power ever, although he took some shitty losses.)#13 Domi...greatest chin and win % #14 Semenko: under rated due to footage lacking, had the type of impact on team that youd want from enforcer. #15 Grimson...one ofmy personal faves...great powerful right, and even when he wasnt in his prime, couldnt be taken lightly A great intimidator who had at times a case of the looney bug. Loved him! #16 Jonathen...hardly lost, always gave up size...entertaining as hell, and went with anyone #17 Berube...another under rated guy with quickness and furocity....remember what he did to a prime Probie????
#18 Chris Nilan...one of the best technicians ever....boring to watch, but had balls of steel and great win% #19 Barry Beck...another under rated big man...way strong and went with anyone and never recall him losing big. #20 Tony Twist...liked him even with the nordiques...powerful bundle of testosterone for a while there
"Pitching is really just an internal struggle between pitcher and his stuff. If my curve ball is breaking and I'm throwing it where I want, the batter is irrelevant." - Steve Stone

chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
08-16-04 11:41 AM - Post#308420    

Fraser top 5? Manson top 10 all time? Ahead of Fotiu and Berube? Secord top 10??

I must tell ya.. That list is unique and ummm...different?

You also slipped from 11 to 18 for some reason.. Not enough Hawks you could think of?
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
08-16-04 12:12 PM - Post#308437    

johnz you never disappoint. Please "wow" us and explain how Manson who has never ever, ever beaten a legit top 10 guy in his career (Twist and Odjick were rookies and not even close to top fighters when Manson beat them. McCrae was never a solid top 10 guy) can be considered an all time top 10.

I mean you made a case that Manson should be a top 10 guy for a year or two and it was not a very strong case. We listened to it provided counterpoint and you stuck to your guns. Ok, now you want to place him top 10 all time? I just want a reason. Fear Factor, being too valuable to fight, and not loosing dont make you a top 10 fighter in any year much less all time.

Who did he beat?
the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-16-04 12:35 PM - Post#308448    

chaser and bruins: i share your questions on manson's ranking, but this is not the thread to do it in guys. i want this thread to stay focused on member's top20 rankings. every time manson's name gets mentioned, i lnow that the thread will end up in that direction. lol.

so, for debate on choices, we welcome that too. just start another thread on that specific topic and i'm sure john will be happy to answer you. thanks.


johnz: thanks for your list bud, but don't respond about the manson questions in here.
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

Maguire19
Moderator
Posts 19237
Maguire19
08-16-04 12:41 PM - Post#308454    

Did Playfair ever lose to Nilan?I think I have 4 fights of theirs and they all looked like Playfair wins to me.Including one real nasty drubbing where Nilan is kind of out on his feet.

the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-16-04 12:47 PM - Post#308459    

nilan beat playfair once in 6 fights. i scored it 4-1-1 for playfair.

he literally owned him imo ...
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

Maguire19
Moderator
Posts 19237
Maguire19
08-16-04 01:01 PM - Post#308468    

Yeah,have to give Nilan alot of credit too.He kept coming back against Playfair and was really outsized.Good competitor that Knuckles was.

johnz
legend
Posts 13792
johnz
08-16-04 01:25 PM - Post#308486    

I used the Nialan fight as an example where it seemed at times a different fighter showed up in PLayfair...then he takes an o'reilley and makes him look REAL bad and throws him around....I'm a Playfair fan, make no mistake.
"Pitching is really just an internal struggle between pitcher and his stuff. If my curve ball is breaking and I'm throwing it where I want, the batter is irrelevant." - Steve Stone

Playfair27
captain
Posts 654
Playfair27
08-16-04 01:36 PM - Post#308497    

Nice job johnz.
"How about you and I go for a little canoe ride?!" - Dave Semenko

Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
08-16-04 02:50 PM - Post#308537    

Probert
Wilson
Brown
Nystrom
Jonathan
McSorley
Fotiu
Kocur
Gillies
Playfair
Hunter
Domi
Kordic
Grimson
Berube
Carlson
Nilan
Maloney
Brashear
Baumgartner

HM: Ray, Miller
habiton
captain
Posts 921
habiton
08-16-04 03:21 PM - Post#308574    

Not to start anything Bruins.

What do you mean by Honourable Mentions for Ray.

Do you mean that he is 21 or 22 on your list, cause if so I find it hard to put him even in the top 50 all time. He had some great showings, but he also took a lot of losses. I don't know if I would put Ray top 10 in any one year. Just a question as to what you meant by the HM.
Pibbs President of the Helmet Wearing Society

habiton
captain
Posts 921
habiton
08-16-04 03:44 PM - Post#308590    

1. Behn Wilson - short career compared to most top 10, however beat some legends and never really took a bad loss.

2. Bob Probert - number one for so many years and was the testing ground and career builder for so many - Grimson, Domi, Ewen and a lot of others made their names off of fighting Probert.

3. Dave Brown - number one when Probert was off on rehab for several years and had some huge victories. Brown though did suffer some very iffy defeats.

4. Clark Gillies - seemed to save his fights for the bigger names and always seemed to do very well.

5. Nick Fotiu - anyone who can say they beat, argueably, Wilson and Holmgren deserves top billing. With that said Fotiu did lack the amount of fights others produced.

6. Bobby Nystrom - probably part of the best duo ever with him and Gillies. Nystrom didn't suffer many losses and had some huge victories.

7. Joey Kocur - the legend killer...man he ended a lot of reputations when he burst onto the scene...just ask Kyte.

8. Marty McSorley - not much power, but the endurance he possessed for such a big man was unbelievable. In the top 5 consistantly from the late 80's till the mid to late 90's. Unbelievable staying power.

9. Tony Twist - I know maybe a stretch, but considering he was number 1 on a lot of people's list for several years and probably would have stayed their for a few more if it wasn't for his bike accident. Steroids or not this guy could fight and hurt people. He once split a guys helmet open in the minors.

10. Paul Holmgren - another flyer legend, which may account for some of his hype, none the less this guy fought everyone and beat almost everyone. He did suffer more losses then others in his era, but he also seemed to fight twice as much as those other legends.

11. Playfair - tough as they come
12. O'Reilly - fought everyone
13. Hunter - I think if he played on the east coast in the early days of his career he would have gotten a higher rating. Great fued with Semenko.
14. Grimson - number one for several years and top 5 for a few others. Broke into the league with three fights against Dave Brown. Fights #2-4.
15. Baumgartner - never a number one guy any one year, but always top 5 from 89-96.
16. Maloney - like others have said, considered one of the best in the 70's.
17. Jonathan - fought anyone and everyone and considering he usually gave up a huge height and weight advantage to his opponent he did extremely well. The 70's version of Domi perhaps.
18. Fraser - I believe he is a little underated..perhaps if he played for Philly, Boston or the Islanders he would have had more exposure. Legendary rivalry with another great fighter Willie Plett which Fraser seemed to own him.
19. Brashear - I know I am going to hear about this one, but considering he has been number one or number two over the last 5 years he deserves mentioning in my top 20. Anyone who has 4 or 5 victories over Probert..albeit an aging Probert..deserves credit.
20. Semenko - legendary rivalry with Tiger Williams and Tim Hunter..again I think if he played on the east coast he would have gotten a lot more exposure.
Pibbs President of the Helmet Wearing Society

Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
08-16-04 04:27 PM - Post#308616    

Cairns, Ray has some great KOs and TKOs. The guy knew his role, has the most PIMs for one team ever, re-defined the hockey sweater, I think he deserves an HM.
I probably placed Miller to low but I can make a case either way for him.
the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-16-04 05:54 PM - Post#308658    

Quote:

Probert
Wilson
Brown
Nystrom
Jonathan
McSorley
Fotiu
Kocur
Gillies
Playfair
Hunter
Domi
Kordic
Grimson
Berube
Carlson
Nilan
Maloney
Brashear
Baumgartner

HM: Ray, Miller




brashear @19! no arguments from me bro, but i never, ever thought i'd see brashear on a top fighters list from you. holy shiitte.

btw, nice to stanley make your top5 . i like it ...
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
08-16-04 05:59 PM - Post#308660    

With exception of the top 7-8 all of them can be mixed up a bit. Bottom 10 are very interchangable and I go back and fouth on several. Brash is a major fraud but I will give him his due. He has had a great run and is very tough to beat. You could almost make a case for him being beter than Manson lol.

SJ is the man. Someone 5'7" 175 HAD to be a great fighter to do what he did. Very undertated as far as fighting skills.
Edmond Dantes
hall of famer
Posts 5419
Edmond Dantes
08-16-04 06:18 PM - Post#308666    

1) Probert
2) Brown
3) Wilson
4) Kocur
5) Gillies
6) Fotiu
7) Playfair
8) Nystrom
9) McSorely
10) O'Reilly
11) T. Hunter
12) Jonathan
13) Holmgren
14) Nilan
15) Berube
16) Twist
17) Domi
18) Maloney
19) Semenko
20) Grimson

always subject to change as see/hear/learn more
'take the shortest route to the puck and arrive in ill humor' -Fred Shero

the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
08-17-04 07:40 AM - Post#308929    

i've been thinking about some of these lists and i think steverooney makes a good point about jay wells.

this guy has earned some active consideration for top20 status. how many guys can claim wins over topranked fighters like probert, brown, semenko, hunterx2, mcsorley, fotiu, kocur, miller, plett, nilan and NOT be considered a contender? his fight card in latter years drops off (as does most fighters) but don't forget, he played 18 seasons - i think he's paid his dues, no? everybody's looking for guys with multiple big wins in their career to be considered - well, look no further than jay wells. i think steve makes a great point and i think he should atleast get borderline top20 status, or an HM here or there. laugh if you want, but i laugh when i see john kordic's name on a top20 list. a part-time player, a soft puncher, a short prime and a small handful of notable wins. plus the steroid asterisk. not doubting he was a tough guy but an all-timer? gimme a break.
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

sambubba
veteran
Posts 262
08-17-04 09:11 AM - Post#308984    

It still amazes me how little consideration Ferguson, Howe and Kurtenbach get. I know not many of the fighters listed would make a living fighting these legends.
Edmond Dantes
hall of famer
Posts 5419
Edmond Dantes
08-17-04 04:52 PM - Post#309342    

I think those guys aren't considered on many of these lists because of the lack of footage available from those times. I'd love to see those guys, but never have, which is why many leave them off their lists. No doubt they're legends and you hear all kinds of stories about them, but you gotta see or at least hear enough verifiable storied from knowledeable people that have seen those guys go (certainly not Stan Fischler)
'take the shortest route to the puck and arrive in ill humor' -Fred Shero

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-17-04 09:23 PM - Post#309464    

I agree. I don't rank guys I've never seen go. I want video, & not "sources" or hearsay. I wanna see for myself, how tough enforcers are to rank them fairly. Let's face it, if we all went on hearsay, Brashear wouldn't make anyone's list cuz he's disliked by many. Others would have Gassoff #1 or Wilson whatever. How can a person honestly rate an enforcer who you've see go once or twice? You can't make a fair judgement that way. Guys like Gassoff, Fergie, Howe, Kurtenbach, Durbano, Plagers etc...
BTW, Fischler sucks as a "reliable source".
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

GOON 21
superstar
Posts 2784
GOON 21
08-18-04 11:13 AM - Post#309855    

I HATE Donal Brashear like 90% of the board, but the guy has been argumentatively the "champ" or at least top 3 FIGHTER (not enforcer, tactics, etc) for some 6+ years..(in ANY era thats A NICE/LONG RUN!!)

I think its a *honest* debate to have him in the top 20 all time FIGHTERS..
ovenrat
all star
Posts 1647
08-18-04 06:16 PM - Post#310199    

Mine:
1. Probert - # of fights, years, top flight challengers, recreational pharmaceuticals.....the stuff of legends. Seeing his mug shot in the Florida newspaper you wouldn't know he fought for as long as he did.
2. Wilson - had he lasted longer(back) he may have had a shot at #1 -Like a rock 'em sock 'em robot, an uncanny knack for landing great punches early, even while he was punching a player into the ice. Squaring of with Behn, a challenger learned that his right fist landed EARLY and quite accurately.
3. Gillies - PRESENCE on the ice, case closed.
4. Brown - ultimate team enforcer, never refused the dance.
5. Fotiu - the NYR played way bigger when Nicky dressed.
6. McSorley - maybe a bit high but when he was out there you knew he'd do ANYTHING to win, the game or the fight. Didn't his brother bite somebodies nose off in juniors?
7. Kocur - That right hand, oh, you know already.
8. Playfair - big tough farm boy.
9. Johnathon - the way he fought he was really 6'2", he just wore lower profile skates, ha ha
10. Domi - # of fights, longevity. very rarely gets hurt by a punch. Hows he do it?
11. Nystrom - We here in Philly didn't get a whole lot of Nystrom fights during the rivalry, some, maybe a mutual respect between the teams.....of course there was that guy Gillies standing next to Bobby.....
12. Hunter - average size, what a gamer, sneakie quick skills, great stamina, face is on the jersey of the B'Hawks.
13. Holmgren - looked mean, fought a lot for the Flyers, never too impressed with Pauls hand speed.
14. Semenko - Here in Philly we pulled up the rear in getting cable TV(politics) so I never got to see enough of nig Dave.
15. Howe - maybe should be higher, nobody would fight him, maybe the best hockey player ever and boy could he fight.
16. Ferguson - hands the size of Texas.
17. Nilan - always impressed with his willingness to go with the bigger guys and Montreal hardly ever carried more than Chris.
18. O'Reilly - epitomized the Bruins, his heart the stuff of legends, wish he had been a Flyer.
19. Laraque - still young, big with great hand speed, not many challenge him.....we'll see if he has staying power.
20. Brashear - at the top or near for quite a few years now, longevity has to have it's perks.

HM - Howatt, Bridgman, Fraser, Cochrane, Kyte, Crowder, Clark
johnz
legend
Posts 13792
johnz
08-18-04 07:04 PM - Post#310230    

....gordie howe. i think given his success and strength, we all were guilty of over looking him. good list overnat.
"Pitching is really just an internal struggle between pitcher and his stuff. If my curve ball is breaking and I'm throwing it where I want, the batter is irrelevant." - Steve Stone

espo
captain
Posts 996
08-19-04 08:02 PM - Post#311122    

I'm sick of always hearing about Stan Fischler and that we shouldn't use his "heresay" opinions and only rate on tape we've seen. Hey, we ALL KNOW that Fischler is full of crap and just trying to sell books! He mixes truth and fiction so much that, of course we must discount him!

So does one bad egg get to ruin the whole course of hockey fight history? History of any kind, is built on research. That's why we know as much about World War I as we know about the old Roman Empire...it's history. There are plenty of reliable accounts from credible witnesses that should be taken into account to create history.

As much as I like FC, the discounting of old fighters always saddens me. It's always dismissed as uncredible, even in the OLD SCHOOL FIGHTERS section!

That said, I use pretty relaible accounts from sources I do believe.

Take Howe, we saw the pics of the damage he did to the next toughest guy of that day, Fortinato. I saw Fortinato fight enough to see that he was pretty bad himself. We heard enough first hand accounts of that fight, and a few others to know that he was a guy who really could handle himself. Even as an old man in the WHA, we saw him toss a few guys around like toys. In fact, his elbows stayed up and he still scared the young guys enough at 50 that no one wanted to mess with him. Sure they may have cut him slack at 50, but it's pretty credible that he was the real deal. Add in other credible witnesses like refs and former players, and there's more than a bullshit legend cooking there. I can say the same thing for some guys going back 60 years.

Same for Kurtenbach. He WAS the real deal before he started showing up in the old Bruin tapes past his prime. Even, past his prime, you could see the fighter in him. You always can in throughbreds. You could see it in Probert at the end too.

Gassoff is easier for me because what we see on tape was SPECTACULAR! If the rest of his fights were anything like what we see, he may be the single toughest guy who ever lived! Then you take in very credible accounts plenty others like Tiger Williams himself and Bob Plager and sorry, I'm a believer.

Fergie, well I saw enough on game tapes to make me believe he would square up and hit someone in the jaw just as hard as anyone around today. No doubt, he was as big an intimidating force as anyone who ever laced them up today or ever...maybe the best enforcer who ever lived! Not from witnesses, just watch old #22 play a whole game (not shift) in the 60's. Those tapes are out there. I mean this guy singlehandedly took down the BIG Bad Bruins, in a playoff game no less. Just ask the Bruins themselves, they'll tell you.

Carlson's prime, same thing.

Maloney, Kelly etc...well, I saw them so I don't need witnesses to rank them highly.

For those I didn't, that's what research is all about. Sure I've seen more fights from all the fighters of the last 30 years than the 50 years before that, but I didn't need to see all of Proberts fights to rate him highly. In fact, I could have done that after 4 or 5 prime time fights, even against a weak opponent.

Hell, I've even seen and heard enough of Red Horner to make an evaluation that he would stand up in the top 100 of all time! It's not all that impossible to do, I own over 50 hockey books (that aren't written by Fishler) and have seen every available scap of old film, video and picture available on everyone going many, many years.

So when someone asks me to list my top twenty, I'm going to put them in there from the framework that I find credible.
Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
08-19-04 08:03 PM - Post#311125    

Just remeber Gino. He's legit!
sambubba
veteran
Posts 262
08-20-04 08:53 AM - Post#311379    

Thank you Espo! It is good to hear some logical and unbiased analysis from someone who is not tied to a certain team or era of hockey. With some posters, if there was no tape then the player could not have possibly been a top fighter. Some on FC seem to think fighting started in the 80's.
Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
08-20-04 08:56 AM - Post#311382    

Yep, most of the guys espo just listed either made my top 20 or second tier 25 group.
Ipsick
Member
Posts 20232
Ipsick
08-20-04 09:07 AM - Post#311395    

Good call on Howe. I remember JP Kelly checking Howe over the boards and the King's coach immediately pulled JP off the ice and never matched them up again. That's all based on Howe's rep from 20 years earlier.

Add to this topic that 75% of the site never saw a bench brawl live let alone guys like Gassoff, Maloney et al in their prime. We'll always have a majority of the people here siding with the 90's and up players for that reason.
http://www.flyfishthesurf.com/

Hike
Veteran
Posts 6937
08-20-04 09:23 AM - Post#311412    

As always, well done Espo.

Howe was a little before all our times, but my favorite Howe story is a fight he had with Gus Mortson. During Howe's rookie season he lost 4 teeth to a high stick from Mortson. The following year, Howe got even by beating the shit out of Mortson, during the 1948 All-Star game. Beat him up during the All-Star game - it just doesn't it get any better than that, LOL.

I remember reading another article about his long memory with regard to an incident he had with Bobby Baun. Evidently, Baun high sticked Howe in 1957, and 10 years later, Howe caught Baun in the throat with his stick, stood over the prone Baun and said "Now we're even".

As for any losses for Howe, I had heard that he lost a fight badly to Bill Juzda. I'd doubt that there'd be any way to confirm that one though.
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-20-04 07:21 PM - Post#311845    

Espo..what's wrong with not ranking guys who I've never seen play? I've been watching hockey since the mid '70s, & living in BC, all you'd see was a few Canuck games & HNIC once a week, which was either the Habs or Leafs.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

merlin401
captain
Posts 834
merlin401
08-20-04 07:37 PM - Post#311854    

Quote:

Espo..what's wrong with not ranking guys who I've never seen play? I've been watching hockey since the mid '70s, & living in BC, all you'd see was a few Canuck games & HNIC once a week, which was either the Habs or Leafs.




I don't think there's anything wrong with that as long as you preface it with "Best fighters SINCE 1975" or something.

Personally, I have made my top lists both ways, with the people I know well post '75 and including the people I know litte about based purely on legend and the few fights I've seen. My main problem with making lists to include legendary guys that I have personally seen very little tape of is that there is no good cut off point. I mean, in the 50s, there could well have been some dynamite fighters that we don't even hear much about for whatever reason. I've heard people say Maurice Richard was one of the best fighters and KO artists of his time. Do I go back even further and include Ivan Irvin? How about Ivan Johnson from the 20s? As soon as I start including Howe than I can't give the excuse "well I have no video" to exclude others... To me that is even more inconsistent than just saying i'm going to rank the fighters I've seen enough fights of to rank properly.
the hammer
superstar
Posts 3916
08-20-04 09:27 PM - Post#311919    

Excellent,excellent post Espo, you took the words right outta my mouth! Players get reps as good or great fighters for a reason. You can't ignore 1/2 dozen sources telling you that Howe or whoever it may be was somebody not to fuck with. I can only recall a few excepts where a player that was said to be a good fighter turn out to be a flop(Carol Vadnais) and usually the truth will come out if the guy spends a few years in the league. Rookies were always tested in the old days to see what they were made of so guys reps started in their first season. If you couldn't cut the mustard you were sent packing to the minors. Even the stars like Orr or Sittler were good fighters,so the stories of their wins get passed from generation to generation. Just because there's little footage of a player doesn't mean he shouldn't be forgotten about. Do your reseach like you would if you were studing about anything from the past. I was lucky enough to have started watching and following hockey since 1970 so if i didn't see a player fight, i read about it or researched it.
espo
captain
Posts 996
08-21-04 02:44 PM - Post#312244    

Badduke 14:
Actually, it just happened to be your post that set me off because I've been counting and you just happened to be the 1000th guy on FC who discredited old hockey fight history ratings by using Fischler as the reason why.

I do respect your knowledge and it's cool for you to not rate anyone except those who have fights on tape. Hey, if you are from Missouri, you gotta see see it. That's fine.

Me, again, I enjoy researching and comparing scraps of information for my own opinions all-time and when people say that we should only put the fighters on tape in the top 20, I say that's not fair at all. That's leaving many out of the mix.

What set me off was your reasoning by using Fischler and Brashear. As though Fischler is representative of those who would make a historical analysis of old fighters and also, you said Brashear would not get rated top 20 all time if he fought back then, because everyone hates him.

First, anyone with a lick of sense would throw out most of Fischlers historical fighting analysis. Bill Libby is another example, though not quite as bad. I read both for titilation, but nothing more. Hey, if they really studied fights like they say, we would have seen them roll through FC sometime.
You would think I would quote Libby because he backs me up on my Maloney assertions, but I NEVER do. I'd rather quote Durbano, lpsick, Harry Rowe, Hike , ex-fighters, refs and other real experts around... over guys that spouted off. I rarely consider writers who have a propensity to sensationalize when formulating my opinions.

As for the example of Brashear, I see him today, not being rated highly alltime by many who do watch his fights who I do respect here on FC and esewhere...he's certainly no concensus lock for top 20, even if everyone liked him. That said, if I were researching Brashear 50 years in the future, I would try to read behind the opinions and see what their reasons were for not liking him and would surely look to "experts" like O'Reilly and those elsewhere who ranked him highly. Maybe I would see a couple grainy old clips that show his hugging, self-preservationist style, even in big victories, and go with those who rate him high....or confirm what those who rated him lower thought. The botom line is by using Brashear, it's a bad example too because he is no lock for top 20..... by even the most objective judges.

My opiions change all the time time when rating a top 20 all-time. New information keeps surfacing to me that keeps it all in a hopper.

I know we just talk about fighting here, but it so happens I do the same research when evaluating the old stories about talent hockey players. Just like fighting, I like searching out information on who were the most talented scoring players all time. It's no different of an evaluation for me. Maybe I don't see all their tapes, but I read and search out every grainy old clip I can find.

For instance, Maurice Richard's fighting skills were just mentioned. Well I like researching both his fighting and scoring skills. I now have strong opinions about both. Fighting or puck handling skills, history is no different and if I'm wrong...I don't want to be right. I'm having too much fun.
merlin401
captain
Posts 834
merlin401
08-21-04 03:18 PM - Post#312258    

Quote:

For instance, Maurice Richard's fighting skills were just mentioned. Well I like researching both his fighting and scoring skills. I now have strong opinions about both.




Nice, anything you'd be willing to share about what you found about the rocket and dropping the gloves?
JMiller
all star
Posts 1095
08-21-04 06:18 PM - Post#312276    

Merlin, there is a pretty good book called "Blood on the Ice" by Ira Gitler. In it he has a chapter dedicated to Richard and Howe. Apparently Richard was better off left alone and was not above using his stick. The book describes fights in which Richard KO'd "Killer" Dill, Bill "the Beast" Judza and Breaking the nose of Sid Abel. A section of the book asks the GM's to list the toughest players playing in 1958 and the toughest all time. Richard, and Howe, are mentioned prominently. If you want to borrow the book, send me a PM.
One name that is not mentioned on FC when talking about tough guys pre-1967 or so is Fernie Flaman. Guys like Fontinato get a little play but Flaman was ALOT tougher. Flaman was the only player named on every GM's list mentioned above and he was named by Gordie Howe as the toughest player he played against. Supposedly Howe and Flaman never fought because they respected each other too much.
Sorry if this is off topic, I was trying to answer Merlin.
Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
08-21-04 07:29 PM - Post#312298    

Espo...fair enough. I was just using Brashear as an example of a guy who I THINK is a possiblity for top 20. I respect your opinion but I also have my own view on '70s fighters & I don't wanna rank guys who I've never seen because I wanna make MY OWN judgement. Nothing against you or anyone else on this board...peace!
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

the hammer
superstar
Posts 3916
08-21-04 08:43 PM - Post#312324    

JMiller, in the early 70's i used to watch the Braintree Hawks play at the old Ridge Arena and i recall that Flaman's son, who's name i can't recall, played for them and was tough and a great fighter like the old man.
JMiller
all star
Posts 1095
08-21-04 09:22 PM - Post#312332    

Hammer, it was Terry.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid%5B%5D=11968
merlin401
captain
Posts 834
merlin401
08-21-04 10:17 PM - Post#312347    

Jmiller, thanks for the information. I'll try to find that book somewhere first... if not I may try to borrow it, so thanks for the offer. I'm always interested in reading some of the old stuff way before my time. I was reading one book at B&N describing, in detail, some of the wild brawls from the 20's and 30s. Great stuff. We should get a thread together giving our favorite old school reading recomendations...
espo
captain
Posts 996
08-23-04 11:15 AM - Post#313013    

merlin401:
Not to stray off topic, but as for Richard, I think he was special, very special. As a player, he was unreal in the way he scored through sheer determination and uncaring about body damage. As a fighter, he was the same way.

As a player, I think he would be the stand out today on a team that had Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux. 50 goals at that time was at least equal to anything Gretzky or Mario did (which was fantastic of course).

As far as fighting, he would be as tough as they come. It was a different time, when sticks were used as quickly as fists. It was different, more like street fighting on ice and Richard was a tiger when pissed off. I don't think top 20 fighter, but maybe top 50 all-time. He deserved his rep and would be banned from hockey today for the kind of things he used to do when angered. They were brutal beat downs and like Howe, he got a lot more room for that temper.
Harryman 2
regular
Posts 183
08-24-04 02:57 PM - Post#314096    

Hike,
The first fight in LA between Terry & Dan
was a complete blood-letting for O'Reilly.
Terry was bleeding like someone took a razor
to his face. That fight was shortly
after Maloney was traded to the Kings &
helped convinced me that Dan Maloney was the
real deal.
Harryman
Hike
Veteran
Posts 6937
08-24-04 03:22 PM - Post#314108    

Thanks Harry. That's kinda how I remember it also. Wasn't sure if it was the first fight or the second fight though. Glad you could clear that up. Maybe Joakel will rethink his position that O'Reilly "owned" Maloney. If anything, in L.A. it was the other way around.
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment

espo
captain
Posts 996
08-25-04 04:02 PM - Post#314923    

IMHO, Maloney absolutely owned O'Reilly in LA and O'Reilly owned Maloney as a Redwing, but then so did a lot of others.

There is conjecture as to whether Maloney was damaged goods after LA due to shoulder separations to both shoulders, each of which required surgery. A pretty good excuse, but Maloney himself told me that the injuries were never an excuse for losing fights.

Personally, I just read false bravado into that from a man who would never use excuses. I mean, in one of the O"reilly fights he never even attempted to throw a punch...come on, that didn't add up.

Fittingly, when Maloney fought O'Reilly as a Leaf, the first time was a draw.
the hammer
superstar
Posts 3916
08-25-04 04:06 PM - Post#314928    

I agree with you Espo, watching Maloney not throw a punch was very puzzling? I'd say he was hurt.
johnz
legend
Posts 13792
johnz
08-26-04 05:57 PM - Post#315778    

Anybody have any opinions on Reggie Flemming as a fighter, for those who areold enough to have seen him?
"Pitching is really just an internal struggle between pitcher and his stuff. If my curve ball is breaking and I'm throwing it where I want, the batter is irrelevant." - Steve Stone

the hammer
superstar
Posts 3916
08-26-04 08:49 PM - Post#315903    

Fleming was a good fighter during the 60's but started to lose his share as he got older. Cashman pound him around 1970.
johnz
legend
Posts 13792
johnz
08-26-04 09:16 PM - Post#315922    

interesting...never knew about the cashman fight...thanks th!!!!
"Pitching is really just an internal struggle between pitcher and his stuff. If my curve ball is breaking and I'm throwing it where I want, the batter is irrelevant." - Steve Stone

sickboy
veteran
Posts 371
sickboy
08-27-04 05:00 PM - Post#316465    

1.Probert
2.Wilson
3.Brown
4.Gillies
5.Playfair
6.Nystrom
7.Fotiu
8.Hunter
9.McSorley
10.Kocur
11.Semenko
12.Domi
13.Jonathan
14.Schultz
15.Holmgren
16.Wensink
17.Nilan
18.Brashear
19.Twist
20.Grimson

HM:Berube,O'Reilly,Miller,Wells,Fraser,Baumgartner,Laus,Kyte,Gaetz,Plett

Overrated:Cochrane,J.Kordic,Simon
Old Time Hockey

Anonymous


09-11-04 01:28 PM - Post#325067    

Probert - A prime motivated Probert could beat ANYONE
Wilson
Gillies
Brown
Fotiu
Playfair
Nystrom
Kocur
J. Miller (for reasons I've listed in the Miller threads)
Semenko
Domi
Wensink
Hunter
Twist
Domi
Schultz
Grimson
Holmgren
Nilan
fiasco001
hall of famer
Posts 5442
fiasco001
09-11-04 01:49 PM - Post#325074    

No McSorley?

Anonymous


09-11-04 07:51 PM - Post#325229    

Thanks Fiasco, I am getting old. New list, including Mayhem, who happens to be one my all time favorites:

Probert - A prime motivated Probert could beat ANYONE
Wilson - The total package
Gillies - Fear factor was incredible with this guy
Brown - Cheap, and a one-way fighter but extremely effective
Fotiu - So technically sound, I really like this guy
Playfair - A monster who handed out some serious beatings
Nystrom - Thor losses are quite rare
Kocur - Too much power for most to absorb & LB agrees
Marty McSorley - The consumate warrior always fought to win
J. Miller (for reasons I've listed in the Miller threads)
Semenko - An animal that inflicted some serious damage
Domi - This kid was the real deal
Wensink - Proved his worth by dropping #2
Hunter - Very technical, respected by most
Twist - Fear factor plus injuries he's inflicted
Schultz - The guy's a legend and was the real deal at the time
Grimson -Very very dominant when he finally hit his prime
Holmgren - Another true gritty warrior, some great victories
Dean Kennedy - Gained mucho respect seeing what he did to May and so many others
habiton
captain
Posts 921
habiton
09-13-04 01:06 PM - Post#325799    

Dean Kennedy on a top 20 list?

Wow didn't even think he was a top 5 guy on any team he played on.

Hey it's your list and you are entitled to put who ever you want on there. Dean Kennedy though - just a fav of yours I would imagine.
Pibbs President of the Helmet Wearing Society

Giz
legend
Posts 10137
Giz
09-13-04 01:16 PM - Post#325804    

i think it'd be a pretty safe bet that Dean Kennedy was a top 5 guy on every team he played on until he retired. probably not his early seasons with LA, but certainly by his last 2 or 3 there. there's a good thread on him here somewhere, if i find it i'll give it a bump.

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
09-19-04 03:42 PM - Post#329271    

Quote:

Here's my TOP 20 ALLTIME LIST....I KNOW MANY WILL DISAGREE

1. BOB PROBERT..fought anyway you wanted & usually won. Whether the cocaine was a factor or not, he was THE MAN to beat for about 8 years, took on all comers & won. Greatest fighter alltime...NUFF SAID!
2. DAVE BROWN..best lefty alltime. Could he throw a right? Who knows, his fights didn't last that long. Great KO power..best enforcer alltime, knew his job & got it done. Some of his more memorable victims were..McPhee, Miller, Coxe, Caufield, Nilan, Kyte, Odjick & Wells.
3. BOBBY NYSTROM..Ok, not many will agree with such a high ranking as #3 alltime, but look at his record, he was awesome! Great toe to toe fighter. Some of his more noteable fights were vs Bridgman, stood in with 6'4" Playfair & hammered Hoyda, Dykstra, Korn & slugged it out with G.McPhee. Too bad his early footage is not available, but I believe I've seen enough to rank him #3 alltime.
4. TIM HUNTER..Best conditioned player alltime. Hunter was strong as an ox, could fight toe to toe or wrestle for 2 minutes. Incredible stamina! Had some great wars vs Oiler's Semenko & McClelland. One of the most under rated fighters because he played in Calgary.
5. NICK FOTIU..One of the most intimidating goons ever. Yes I say goon, because Fotiu had no skill, he was on the ice for one purpose, kickin' ass! His biggest fight was vs Behn Wilson & Fotiu ended it with solid right punch. Dusted another Flyer Paul Holmgren & had two slugfests with one time Canuck enforcer Jack McIlhargey, each winning one. Toughest Ranger ever, & one of the most popular. Apparently a golden gloves boxer.
6. STAN JONATHAN..Toughest "small" guy ever. Could take a punch with the best of them & deliver a solid punch as well. Beat B.Wilson & his most noteworthy fight was vs Pierre Bouchard in the playoffs. Once scored 27 goals, not bad for a tough guy!
8. CLARK GILLIES.."Jethro" was one scary dude. Had great fued vs O'Reilly & had a one win, one loss record vs Behn Wilson. Hammered Schultz & broke Hospodar's jaw. Easily disposed of Boston tough guy Al Secord. Never had over 99 pims in a year. Four Stanley Cups, & two 1st team All Stars along with a Hockey Hall of Fame inductee. Great career!!
9. BEHN WILSON..Reluctanly, I have to have him at #9. He was a terror, & would fight anyone, anytime. Great strength, decent stamina & a hard puncher. KO'd John Hilworth, one of his many victims. Lost to Fotiu in a great bout, also lost to Wensink & Jonathan. Very dirty & vicious player. Would just as soon carve your eye out, than punch you in the face. Some of his other more memorable battles were vs O'Reilly, Gillies, McGill, Semenko & Wendel Clark.
10. LARRY PLAYFAIR..One of the toughest players in the late '70s to early '80s. Great size, 6'4" Playfair was considered huge when he broke in. A couple of his more memorable fights were vs Nystrom, Nilan, KO'd McClelland, &
his biggest loss was to LA Kings Brian MacLellan.
11. DAVE SEMENKO..One of best goons & most feared men in hockey. Gretzky's bodyguard in the early '80s. KO power & dirty as hell. Great wars vs Tim Hunter & Basil McRae. Out powered Canuck tough guy Ron Delorme. Got his head hammered by Chicago's Behn Wilson in the playoffs, & Tim Hunter thumped him bad a couple of times. Unfortunately, not much of his early '80s or WHA footage is available.
12. MARTY MCSORLEY..Another player from those Stanley Cup teams in Edmonton. Marty's stamina is second only to Tim Hunter. Had so many memorable battles with the likes of Brashear, McCarthy, Probert, Odjick etc..He fought a lot more in LA than in Edmonton. Great fight card! One of the nicest guys off the ice, but a menace on the ice. Played twice with Pittsburgh, Edmonton & Los Angeles.
13. DONALD BRASHEAR..One of my alltime favorites, & one of the toughest guys alltime. Love him or hate him, he keeps on winning. Has a great KO left hand, strong as a bull & good stamina. Rarely loses, & has KO'd many opponents. Has one of the best win/loss records & a great fight card to boot. Should be higher on the list.
14. TIE DOMI..Another guy with a terrific fight card. Has KO power & a head harder then stone. Can take a punch better than anyone. Dropped many guys in his 1st couple of seasons. Awesome fued with Rob Ray, the best in hockey! Many great battles vs Brashear, Odjick, McCarthy & Probert. Domi vs Jonathan fight would have been awesome!
15. JIM KYTE..Maybe the second toughest guy in the early 80's. Kyte had great reach & a hard punch. Some of his more noticable fights were vs Kluzak, KO'd Butcher, Kocur 3x, McSorley 2x, & Brown 2x. Really went downhill after the Kocur KO. Wore hearing aids in his helmet.
16. JOE KOCUR..Hardest puncher alltime. Kocur has many KO's to his name, & a battered right hand to prove it. Would take a couple of punches just to land THE BOMB. Dropped by Coxe & Raglan. Cousin of Wendel Clark. Brother Kerry was a journeyman tough guy in the minors for years. Known mostly for his KO of Jim Kyte. Other noteable fights vs McSorley, Probert, Kyte, Gill, Dalgarno, Ray & Coxe.
17. CURT FRASER..One of the toughest Canuck's alltime! Fraser was a boxer & had KO power. Dropped Dave Farrish with one punch. Had a wicked fight vs Behn Wilson & many fights vs Bob Probert. Broke Shayne Corson's jaw. Beat Flames Willi Plett 3x in the opening round of the '82 playoffs. Born in Cincinatti, a diabetic.
18. JOHN KORDIC..Another lefty. Energic fighter who threw fast & often. Man handled Jay Miller in their first few fights. Many wars vs Basil McRae, Miller & Kimble. Not a feared tough guy, but also a dirty player. Possibly a pillow puncher, who feared Probert. A very talented defenseman in junior. Was really fucked up at the end of his career from drugs. Died by the sword. RIP
19. PAUL HOLMGREN..Paul Bunyan on skates. Holmgren was massive when he broke in the league. Hammered Schultz in his return to Philly. Had a couple of beauty fights vs Hospodar & Fotiu. Battled Canuck tough guy Harold Snepsts in 1980 bench clearing. Worst loss was a beating he took from Canadien's tough guy Kent Carlson, who broke Holmgren's jaw. One of the more talented guys on my list with 163 goals including playoffs. Played in the '81 allstar game.
20. SANDY MCCARTHY..Came in with a bang, hammering many opponents in his rookie season 93-94. Beat the shit out of tough guys, Ray 2x, Bomber 2x, Domi, Leroux, McKenzie, Probert & Simon. Fought his best friend Gino Odjick to a draw. His worst loss was a beating he took from Brashear. Would be much higher on the list had his career not gone downhill the way it has. Very good fight card.




After further review I have to omit Paul Holmgren from my Top 20 list. This guy didn't impress me one bit upon further review. Maybe the most unipressive tough guy, along with Willi Plett. Holmgren had no stamina, poor balance & many shitty fights. No where near my top 20 after reviewing many of his fights. I'd have to say that Mel Bridgman was a tougher Flyer than Holmgren. I'll add either Odjick or Grimson for 20th spot on my list with McCarthy moving up 1 position. I'd like to also move Brashear from 13th to 12th place.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Boulton
superstar
Posts 3000
09-20-04 12:48 AM - Post#329407    

Having Stan J ahead of Playfair is ridiculous.

Ask The Bulldog.

I liked Jonathan a lot, but he had his hands full with Danny Gare....
"Go fuck yourself, Mr. Cheney! Go fuck yourself, you asshole!" Emergency Room Physican Dr. Ben Marble

harry steve durbano
captain
Posts 968
harry steve durbano
12-10-04 03:47 PM - Post#367870    

The Fotiu after 1979 was not a goon. He developed into a respectable player scoring 8-10 goals a year for 4 years with limited ice time and then 7 goals and 13 points in only 40 games in 1983-84 which would have been a 14 goal 26 point season. Hardly a goon and remember he was playing for Herb Brooks. Put him with Don Cherry and play him 10-12 minutes and I am sure he would have gotten 15-25 goals. Look at Wensink, he had 18 and 28 goals with grapes was confident. Nick could have done the same thing. Look at Matt Barnaby the last two years. Given a chance to play, got his confidence back and was back playing good hockey. Nick could skate and had a hell of a wrist shot. You cannot score sitting on the bench.
I wouldn't say Fotiu had no talent. One time on a MSG show with Dave Maloney, Brad Park, Rod Gilbert, Walter Tkaczuk, and Emile Francis; Francis was asked who the best athlete he ever saw with the Rangers and I was shocked when he said Nick Fotiu and Maloney, Gilbert, and Tkaczuk all agreed saying it was amazing that Nick didn't even skate or play until he was 15 years of age and yet made it to the NHL for 13 years. Quite a testimony and accomplish. Brad Park who played against Nick was impressed and said imagine if he started playing at 5 like anyone else. He might have been another Cam Neely.
If anything Nick was way too nice with a long fuse and was as fair a fighter as there was, not a bully like Schultz picking on guys like Rolfe. Nick should have acted like a goon a little more often!
Justin
Senior Vet
Posts 11069
Justin
12-11-04 07:39 PM - Post#368337    

My top 4 are always the same. Thereafter, I change my mind all the time, but these are usually the guys in my list.

1. Probert
2. Wilson
3. Brown
4. Fotiu. The only guy in my top 10 with a suspect card. But I remember those MSG days. Fotiu was scary. Holmgren admitted it.
5. Gillies. Thought he was just a tad more effective and scary than his teammate. Career rep also enhanced by the big beatings of Schultz and Hospodar.
6. Playfair
7. Nystrom
8. Maloney
9. Jonothan. Forget the size thing. The W-L record is remarkable.
10. McSorley. I saw Marty take a LOT of losses the last 4-5 years of his career, but he was still dangerous then. Did most of his best work when young.
11. Kocur. Terrifying. Here's a guy who was HURT by having a riding partner. Probie took most of the top-tier guys, leaving Joey with a lesser card. Not his fault. Look what he did to Gaetz and Kyte.
12. Cochrane
13. Semenko. I have always had mixed feelings about Big Dave. Seemed overrated back in the day, now seems kind of underrated.
14. Holmgren
15. Hunter. My gut feeling is this is a little high - yes, high. Being a great technical fighter in and of itself is not that important. A fighter's OVERALL effectiveness is what matters. Outside some great showings in Battle of Alberta games, he didn't really have a huge impact around the league - did he?
16. Carlson
17. Fraser - admittedly haven't seen much of Curt
18. Grimson - the 90s wasn't the 80s, but Stu fought and won like it was. Lost his share, never cared. Hurt people like few other 90s fighters.Unabashadly my favorite fighter ever.
19. Berube. Surprised he didn't make more lists. Spanned two eras, just like Stu.
20. Domi. Just never liked the guy. Can't deny his effectiveness.

HM - Miller, Jack McIlhargey (hardly a mention here?), Twist, McCarthy, McKenzie, Plett, dozens more. I suck at this.

the_Bulldog
Member
Posts 4128
the_Bulldog
12-16-04 12:52 AM - Post#370188    

nuthin the matter with that list justin. you're right, it is tough to know for sure where everybody fits. my own list changes regularly as time moves on - usually not the names, but the overall rankings get shuffled around some ....
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008

Dupre2003
hall of famer
Posts 5285
Dupre2003
01-07-05 02:40 PM - Post#378860    

1. Probert
2. Gillies
3. B. Wilson
4. Fotiu
5. Nystrom
6. Brown
7. Ferguson
8. Weinsick
9. Playfair
10. McSorley
11. Kocur
12. Maloney
13. Schultz
14. Jonathan
15. Cochrane
16. Twist
17. Berube
18. Grimson
19. McIlhargey
20. Bridgman/Fraser

rjb
prospect
Posts 1
01-21-05 01:07 PM - Post#384861    

Obviously being a Philly fan, I'd say Behn Wilson is best fighter I've ever seen, dropping the likes of Clark Gilles, Willie Plett, Barry Beck other a long list of others. Missing from the list are two Flyers who could really through'em Mel Bridgman and Rick Tocchet.
harry steve durbano
captain
Posts 968
harry steve durbano
01-21-05 04:31 PM - Post#384926    

I remember Wilson skating in for Holmgren against Beck in 79-80 and the fight being a wrestling match. I never saw Beck get dropped by anyone in a fight.
Canucko29
legend
Posts 13525
Canucko29
01-23-05 01:05 PM - Post#385451    

I haven't done this in years, so I might as well throw my list out there since I've basically seen all of the old hockey fight footage I ever want to see.

1) Bob Probert-clearly the best.
2) Dave Brown-clearly the 2nd best. I don't remember a fighter being more feared in my lifetime. They might as well have strapped a dorsal fin on his back.
3) Marty McSorley-Outside of Probert, he was the greatest technical fighter I ever seen and, strangely, he rarely ever lost toe-to-toe battles. The only thing he didn't have was great power, but his power was good enough obviously to do some damage to his opponents.
4) Behn Wilson-Great long hard uppercuts. Deadly. And he was also technically proficient.
5) Clark Gilles-He had excellent straight punches and haymakers, which put him very high on my list. Not many could survive going toe-to-toe with him and he was very strong and very feared.
6) Nick Fotiu-I just haven't seen enough of this guy. I give him a lot of credit for being a good boxer and for beating up a couple very good fighters. But I don't think we seen enough of him.
7) Tim Hunter-He was simply an excellent technical fighter. He had a way of neutralizing power and keeping the other guy off balance. He could beat anybody on this list. I have issues with his power, but his strength was such that it didn't matter. If you take 4 punches in a row, I don't care how hard that guy hits, because it will hurt anyways.
8) Stan Jonathan-Great power to go along with a great w-l record. He did everything, except he didn't fight all of the best, thanks to that mad man Terry O'Reilly hogging all the action.
9) Donald Brashear-I know, I know, but the guy has a w-l record that rivals anyones; he has power and a good enough TKO/KO record to prove it; and now he has longevity on his side. Bad enforcer. Great fighter.
10) Tie Domi-I don't like him, but I respect him. Hardest head in history, quite likely. This is a guy who mastered using his short stature to his advantage. He had good power and great strength. Longevity is his greatest advantage. It's hard to even pin down his prime. Some say it was in NY, but the guy has been beating guys for a while now.
11) Craig Berube-Very, very underrated. He has wins over many great fighters, including Bob Probert AND he had one of the best runs ever from 91 to 95, similar to Odjick's. He had good power, was technically sound, and he knew his role. He did it all and he fought them all.
12) Stu Grimson-Very tough in his prime from 97 to his retirement.
13) Chris Simon-In his prime, he was deadly. Those lefts were evil. Absolutely evil. For two years, he was almost as good as a prime Dave Brown (with the consistency, of course). His 95-96 season was incredible. And now he seems to be on the rebound and I expect him to make more noise in the seasons to come.
14) Larry Playfair-I didn't see a lot of him, but the little I did see I was impressed with. The problem is that I've seen like only 5 of his fights. But anybody who beats up on Nilan is in solid with me.
15) Glen Cochrane- He had very effective long distance punches. When he fought--and I'm not kidding you--he was like gumby with attitude (probably a laughable analogy, but, seriously, he does).
16) Joey Kocur-I personally think he was an oftentimes sloppy fighter with an excellent punch. Jim Kyte was made for a fighter like him. He fought a lot of nobodies. People say that it's because he was so feared, but I would think the guys who don't know how to fight would fear him more than the ones who did. He's probably the most powerful puncher on this list and probably of all-time. But anywhere where you see the word "technical" or some derivative of it attached to another fighter on this list, I think that person beats Kocur in a 10 out of 10 square-off.
17) Dave Semenko-Not a great fighter, but a particularly effective enforcer. He's Brashear in reverse. Great enforcer, but only an above average fighter with a terrific punch (except, Brashear sucks at enforcing). In boxing, he'd be Earnie Shavers, which isn't all that bad.
18) Gino Odjick-Excluding those ugly years, he's a great fighter who beat a lot of other great fighters when they were in their prime. I don't think I'm being a homer when I do this, since I have a greater appreciation for the technical aspects of fighting and Odjick in that 1993 season was a freaking dream (in shape, active and winning). I think he only lost to Tie Domi.
19) Bobby Nystrom-I think we overrate him because he was a fun fighter to watch. Technically, all he did was throw them and he wasn't an overly powerful fighter from what I've seen. Still, it worked for him and he had a decent record. He'd beat a lot of the toe-to-toe'ers, but have his hands full with the more technically proficient group and bigger punchers.
20) Eric Cairns-This may be a surprise to some and I really seriously believe this guy took on steroids (which, in case you haven't noticed, I've considered in my rankings), but he seems to be the new bad man of the NHL. He's a powerful puncher and he has developed an effective style. He's what I thought Scott Parker would become (and who still has a chance to become).

People, this is the man who will beat Brashear and become the next heavyweight champion in my opinion. He has all the tools to do it.

HM to: Jay Miller (I have SERIOUS issues with his power), Ken Baumgartner (inconsistency costs him, but he was an otherwise very good fighter), Fraser, Richter and all of those 60s/70s guys I haven't seen enough of to judge.

It's my experience that technical fighters, provided that they have enough power and are in shape, can beat anybody on any given night. Some guys made my list who only brought power to the table, but I always look for something more.

Also, I did not consider anyone with documented or obvious steroid abuse histories. It's firm but fair. If I did consider them, Twist and McCarthy would make my top 10/15 and Kordic would just barely make my top 20.

Well, anyways, it's been fun. Don't hate me too much.

McRae17
all star
Posts 1713
McRae17
02-14-05 10:31 AM - Post#395642    

Here goes.
20. Berube....Great longevity. Fought about everybody. Bloodied Probert, KO of McSorley. Very quick fighter, did his best work in first 10-15 seconds of his bouts.
19. Bridgeman......Only seen a few of his fights. Has a great rep from what I've read. Great fights with O'Reilly. Beat a rookie McSorley as a Devil. Tough hardnosed, sneaky power.
18. Semenko...Big nasty fighter. When motivated looked unstoppable. Seemed to tire after 15-20 seconds. Was a monster in WHA from what i've read.
17. Jack Carlson.... Based mostly on rep. Unbeatable in the WHA, not as many NHL fights.
16. D Schultz...The name most linked to 70's era goon. Had some great wide open fights from the few I've seen. Made The Hammer a household name...
15. Jay Miller....had 7 strong years as a fighter. Had more fights in that many years as some had in 12-15 seasons. Took on all comers. One of the first to beat D Brown 2X in his prime, mid eightes golden days, drew with Probert. Had great series with Nilan and Kordic. Even as a King had some dandies with Kyte, Kimble, Stern, Hunter. Would be higher if he played a few more seasons.
14. C Nilian.....Great inside fighter. Never really seen him beat bad. Gets huge cred from me by going with D Brown during the playoff brawl. That took guts to dance with him, Brown had no shirt, no refs and held his own. Not many guys could have handled that situation so well.
13. Playfair...Haven't seen too mcuh of him. Big strong with long reach. Could really snap the punches off quick..
12. Gillies....Only seen a few of his fights. Not impressed with him in Buffalo. Never over 100 pims in a season. Was a monster when fired up, but that didn't happen too ofen to warrant top 10 in my book.
11. B Nystrom...Exciting fights. Gets put ahead of Gilles for being more active.
10. Grimson.....After a shaky start, became a dynamite fighter. Lots of power in his punches. Could throw pretty quick for a big guy. Great fights with Probert, Ryan V, Langdon, McSorley. Willing to take all comers.
9. McSorley....great stamina. Big wins over Brown, Kocur, Hunter, Playfair, Domi, McCarthy ect.. Fought best of 70's,80's 90's...
8. Fotiu....Based a lot on cred. Had a great fight with B Wilson. When fired up seemed like a wicked, quick puncher with power.
7. Domi....Packs a solid punch. Stocky and with the smarts to get inside and pound on much bigger guys. Has one of the top fight cards in history.
6. Brashear...Just dosen't lose. Surprising quick hard snapping punches. Can come out of no where and smoke a guy 7-8 times and the fight is over. Relies a little to much on the hit a few times hug and take a slight win when not motivated...
5. B Wilson..Big strong and nasty. Couple of great fights with Plett. Haven't seen much of his Philly stuff where he made his mark....
4. T Hunter....Samrt fighter, rarely beaten bad. Big wins over Semenko, Brown, McSorley. Fun to watch the Battle of Alberta fights. Took a few to get his in, then took over most fights late. A better meaner version of D Langdon...
3. J Kocur.....From what I've read one of the most feared guys to lace them up. You can see guys really tried to tie him up in fights, keep his right tied up. Great KO of Kyte. Could even throw decent with his left. Couple of fluke losses, but not many. Only way to beat him was too get him late and sneak out a decison like B McRae did. Just not many losses over a 15 year span.
2. B Probert....Probally has had more exciting fights on tape than anyone. 16 years of taking on all comers. Beat just about everybody. Has few bad losses later in his carrer and at times just didn't seem interested.
1. D Brown....Ahead of Probert in that he really was more dominant in more of his fights. Brown always seemed to care when fighting. Didn't take getting beat kindley. Avenged just about every loss he had. Most times in a big way. Split 1-1 with Probert. I give Probert lots of cred for taking Brown down, but don't forgive him for the pathetic effort in the first fight. I beleive Brown out punched him 6-1 in Detroit. Dirty, nasty and tough. What a #1 guy should be.
roblegere
prospect
Posts 1
03-01-05 05:17 PM - Post#403154    

Twist has a small fight card, because no one was too willing to go him.Twist was the toughest I've seen, matched with Probert within their respected primes.
CrazyEddy
all star
Posts 1806
CrazyEddy
03-02-05 09:50 PM - Post#403913    

I've been reworking a list over the last few weeks, especially after looking at some data DVDs I got from an eBay buddy of mine.


#1 Bob Probert: I just loved his all-business attitude, the way he punished the other team's enforcer, even the way he took his lumps once in a while but then went over later on to exact revenge. That's what it's all about. I miss this guy's attitude.

#2 John Ferguson: he singlehandedly defined what the enforcer role should be. Tough as nails, could skate, score, take the body and, to coin a phrase from Slapshot, basically scared the bejeesus out of everybody. I truly enjoyed the many Bruins poundings he dished out.

#3 Dave Brown: this guy enjoyed his role, and played it to the hilt. You just knew when he hopped on the ice that action would soon follow. Best lefty ever, with great KO power. I hated this guy's guts when he played the Habs, but had to admire his toughness. I'd take him on my Dream Heavyweight Team anytime.

#4 Behn Wilson: rarely took a loss and basically pounded just about everyone that ever crossed his path.

#5 Clark Gillies: when motivated, "Jethro" was devastating. Too bad he didn't fight more often, he could have been "the" champ if not for his playing ability.

#6 Joey Kocur: his tag-team with Probert is the stuff of legends. Had a few surprise losses, but overall, he was definitely a force to be reckoned with.

#7 Bob Nystrom: one of the most exciting fighters ever.

#8 Larry Playfair: gave everyone a hard time, another one of those guys who didn't lose often, and had a well-deserved rep that helped clear space around teammates. He played good, solid defense as well. I feel he's often underrated.

#9 Tim Hunter: great technical fighter, had a long career and a great card to go with it.

#10 Craig Berube: The Chief was impressive against many heavies of his era. Gave Probert a hard time.

#11 Tie Domi: his longevity alone puts him within reach of Top 10 status. Hated his on-ice antics, but results don't lie.

#12 Stan Jonathan: he made me cry when he pounded Pierre Bouchard, but everybody knew this guy was as tough as they come. How much damage would he have dished out if he had been 4 inches taller and 25-30 pounds heavier? Ouch.

#13 Dave Schultz: "The Hammer" did it his way, with lots of dirty tactics and cheapshots, but you still have to admire what he did for the fight fan in all of us.

#14 Nick Fotiu: I know a lot of guys here rank him way higher, Top 5 or so. I think others merit more consideration for what they accomplished. Don't get me wrong, when he fought, he was great, but his card remains suspect to me. Still, he had a rep and was feared during his time.

#15 Dave Semenko: big and strong, with a nice mean streak and a "don't fuck with me" attitude. Gretzky probably owes him half his trophies. Somewhat unappreciated during his time.

#16 Marty McSorley: the guy everyone equates with stamina. Had incredibly long and tiring bouts with all the heavies of his era. A lot of his fights were a tad boring, though, lots of grappling and shit. Too bad he cheapshotted his way out of the NHL.

#17 Chris Nilan: Knuckles fought them all, great, great technical fighter, could make even the meanest and biggest opponents look bad, especially when he fought in close. He was dirty, no doubt about it, but stood up for his teammates when he had to.

#18 Gordie Howe: not an enforcer, but could he ever fight. Dirty as they come, he played to win and got revenge whenever he could. If he didn't have any playing skills, he would have made a great goon. No kidding.

#19 Terry O'Reilly: great heart, would do anything to win, including taking a beating if he had too, but still won more than he lost.

#20 Stu Grimson: The Reaper makes the cut, based mostly on the impressive damage he inflicted on his opponents.


HM: Orland Kurtenbach, Gino Odjick, Bob Gassoff, Tony Twist.
A girl's legs are her best friends, but the best of friends must part. -- Redd Foxx

Kushner10
prospect
Posts 6
Kushner10
03-07-05 08:26 PM - Post#406175    

1 Bridgman
2 Nilan
3Brashear
4 Probert
5 Tocchet
6Neely
7 Kocar
8 Manson
9 Plett
10 Schultz
Corson sucks

BuddyZ2
rookie
Posts 34
03-08-05 11:43 AM - Post#406424    

Wilson
Probert
Brown
Fotiu
Gillies
Playfair
Kocur
Semenko
McSorley
Brashear
Nystrom
Cochrane
Grimson
Holmgren
Jonathan
Hunter
Maloney
Domi
Wensink
Berube
Brawls16
legend
Posts 13178
Brawls16
03-21-05 03:28 PM - Post#411991    

Based on what I've seen and how dominate the fighter was during his career, short or long...

1. Bob Probert
2. Dave Brown
3. Joey Kocur
4. Ben Wilson
5. John Wensink
6. Clark Gillies
7. Nick Fotiu
8. Dave Schultz
9. Tie Domi
10. Bob Nystrom

11. Tony Twist
12. Larry Playfair
13. Dave Semenko
14. Craig Berube
15. Tim Hunter
16. Marty McSorley
17. Johnny Miller
18. Chris Nilan
19. Stu Grimson
20. Paul Laus

HM: Rob Ray, Jim McKenzie, Ryan Vandenbussche, Donald Brashear
johnz
legend
Posts 13792
johnz
03-21-05 08:46 PM - Post#412209    

Good list Kushner.
"Pitching is really just an internal struggle between pitcher and his stuff. If my curve ball is breaking and I'm throwing it where I want, the batter is irrelevant." - Steve Stone

Matt Dillon
legend
Posts 19397
03-21-05 09:15 PM - Post#412227    

Quote:

1 Bridgman
2 Nilan
3Brashear
4 Probert
5 Tocchet
6Neely
7 Kocar
8 Manson
9 Plett
10 Schultz





Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
03-21-05 09:20 PM - Post#412230    

I agree Dillon, that list by Ashton Kushner is quite comical. Yo Kush, any reason for this?
johnz
legend
Posts 13792
johnz
03-21-05 09:22 PM - Post#412231    

Not as funny as Bruins list......seriously..check it out! Baumgartner, Kordik...ha!!! Holy shit, I think I pissed myself reading that!
"Pitching is really just an internal struggle between pitcher and his stuff. If my curve ball is breaking and I'm throwing it where I want, the batter is irrelevant." - Steve Stone

Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
03-21-05 09:23 PM - Post#412232    

Like I said dork put up a poll to see whos list is better. you wont because you are a pussy. Next.......

Hows your dog?
Matt Dillon
legend
Posts 19397
03-21-05 09:32 PM - Post#412236    

Jesus sorry Bruins..

1) Probert
2) Brown
3) Wilson
4) Kocur
5) McSorley
6) Gillies
7) Nystrom
8) Hunter
9) Playfair
10) Schultz

Numbah4
all star
Posts 2289
Numbah4
03-22-05 12:29 AM - Post#412293    

Quote:


Hows your dog?






Oh shit.
A plagiarist assumes others around him are not original, plagiarizing information from others!


johnz
legend
Posts 13792
johnz
03-22-05 07:53 AM - Post#412329    

Bruins---another cowardly comeback. You'd never say that to my face, you fucking virgin geek.
"Pitching is really just an internal struggle between pitcher and his stuff. If my curve ball is breaking and I'm throwing it where I want, the batter is irrelevant." - Steve Stone

Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
03-22-05 08:12 AM - Post#412336    

Do you know the difference between whole and hole?
Langdon Fan
prospect
Posts 10
03-23-05 10:41 AM - Post#413096    

Most of my picks are more recent times cause the others are before my time...
1. Bob Probert
2. Marty McSorley
2. Joey Kocur
4. Stu Grimson
5. Darren Langdon
6. Tie Domi
7. Chris Simon
8. Dave Schultz
9. Scott Parker
10. Jody Shelly
11. Paul Laus
12. Tony Twist
13. Donald Brashear
14. Gino Odjick
15. Eric Crains
16. Rob Ray
17. Peter Worrell
18. Georges Laraque
19. Forbes Kennedy ... My Coach , The Guy is 69 and he still loves it ... Had a Bench Brawl this year and he was more active then some of the players on the team
20. Jonathan "The Hammer" Tremblay ... Just Wait Till Hes in the League (if there ever is one again)
taz
hall of famer
Posts 9668
taz
03-23-05 08:42 PM - Post#413402    

Langdon Fan: Had to chuckle when I saw Forbes Kennedy on the list! My best friend played for Forbes (with Langdon - I think it was Summerside if I recall correctly) and he had some great stories about him! I had a chance to meet Langdon a couple times and have a couple beers with him an dmy buddy when he came in to town to play Fredericton in his AHL days. Real nice guy.
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taz
hall of famer
Posts 9668
taz
03-23-05 08:46 PM - Post#413403    

Kushner: bad list man. Sorry. There's about 7 guys on that list that should even be top 20. Just my opinion commenting on your opinion. Nothing personal.
Large Screen Laptop...$600
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Reading Johnz's inane homer posts...Priceless

Blues 34
superstar
Posts 2681
Blues 34
04-06-05 05:58 PM - Post#419796    

I can really only do from 1990-91 on but using that here would be my off the cuff top 20.

1. Bob Probert-The best I saw hands down

2.Dave Brown-The best lefty that I saw and possibly the meanest SOB on this list.

3.Joe Kocur-The hardest puncher that I saw hands down. Absolutely scary.

4.Marty McSorley-Great team guy who fought nearly everyone of his era and did damn good.

5. Craig Berube-Lightning fast hands and he was one of the few players to give a prime Probert fits. He played over 1000 games and played them all the same way balls to the wall and without fear.

6.Tony Twist-Taking into account that I am starting in 1990, I start the second 10 with Twister. He was the "Champ" for at least a year maybe two. Had a scary right hand similar to Kocur's but not as powerful. In his second stint with the Blues he was scary at times.

7.Tie Domi-Did he showboat at times absolutely especially in his early days. Tie backed it up and still backs it up and is legendary as far as fighters go in my book.

8. Jay Miller-lightning fast hands and very fun to watch

9. John Kordic- See Miller in fact those two had my second favorite rivalry that I saw during this era.

10. Stu Grimson-Got Better and Better as his career went on. To bad that the "Grim Reaper" had his career shortened by concussions. He KO'd Reid Simpson in the best KO that I saw live.

11.Chris Simon-Devistating lefty, shoulder problems slowed him down but he has to be here.

12.Rob Ray-Used the jersey trick early in his career and it gave him a hell of an advantage in a hockey fight, but he adjusted as they changed the rule and was as strong or stronger afterwards. Had a very hard punch.

13.Sandy McCarthy-I am as discusted as the next guy with how Sandy has forgotten his role or whatever you want to call it later in his career but early on he was as good as there was in the game. If he had kept it up he would be much higher.

14. Jim McKenzie-At times early in his career he wasnt active enough for me but he was a very good fighter with a lightning fast left and he has gotten more active as he got older. When Twist was in Quebec and Jim was in Hartford he had some good battles with Twist coming out clearly on top in Two of them.

15.Ken Baumgartner-"Bomber" was a very good scrapper who should probably be higher on this list.

16.Gino Odjick-Very good scrappper who was very exciting to watch, I made a list before that I left him off of simply because I didnt like his style at times but that was wrong he should be here and maybe higher.

17.Shane Churla-Very exciting guy who fought wide open and fought to win had very quick hands.

18.Darin Kimble-Similar style to Churla. the two had the best fight that I ever saw live.

I probably shoul have started with the current crop sooner but I saved who I consider the best Two for the tail end of this list. Both could climb higher.

Donald Brashear-I hate a lot of things about the guy especially the way that he picks his spots but he is 1 or 1a of the current crop.

Georges Laraque-If he was more active I think he could be the best of the current crop. Has a lethal left just like Brashear.
Take the shortest route to the puck and arive there in Ill Humor

cwill
prospect
Posts 2
04-17-05 05:04 PM - Post#424092    

1.Probert
2.Dave Brown
3.Clark Gillies
4.Gordie Howe
5.Joe Kocur
6.Gino Odjick
7.Tony Twist
8.Troy Crowder
9.Shane Churla
10.Terry O'Reilly
11.Marty McSorley
12.Stu Grimson
13.Dave Schultz
14.Chris Simon
15.Craig Berube
16.Cam Neely
17.John Kordic
18.Rob Ray
19.Peter Worrel
20.Brad May
aljanad
journeyman
Posts 62
05-08-05 07:54 AM - Post#433116    

1.Probert
2.Shultz
3.O'Reilly
4.Kocur
5.Domi
6.Jonathan
7.Clark
8.B.Wilson
9.McSorley
10.Berube

Unscientific as can be, but hey, it's only opinion-right?
OzzyOsmond
prospect
Posts 5
06-04-05 09:24 AM - Post#443213    

I not gonna post 20, but I have a coupla comments........

John Kordic was a tough SOB. I had the opportunity to have some drinks with him years ago at a Don Cherry's. He just had that intimidating look about him too. I was the only one who had the balls to approach him!

Dave Brown....when he played with the Oilers, he had a couple of grudge matches with Jim Kyte when he was with Calgary. I was at the rematch in Edmonton, and got some pics of Dave "starting' the lawn mower" on him! Got him on the ice and started pummeling him!
fiasco001
hall of famer
Posts 5442
fiasco001
06-04-05 03:39 PM - Post#443285    

Brown only fought Kyte once as an Oiler. He did fight him 2-3 times as a Flyer. Iknow Kye Beat Brown at least once and scored what I would call a draw or slight edge over Brown in another fight when Brown was a Flyer, but when Brown was an Oiler, he pulverized Kyte. A testiment to Kyte's toughness was that he got back up and had to be convinced not to try to continue, because it looked like he might want to continue it.

steverooney
veteran
Posts 266
06-04-05 04:04 PM - Post#443287    

Brown and Kyte fought 4x. First fight while on Philly, Brown got a close decision. Second fight was a draw,with no advantage either way. Kyte Tko'd Brown in round #3. The last fight was when Brown was on Edmonton and he put a good beating on Kyte after dropping him.
4 fights in their series...2-1-1 in Brown's favor.
OzzyOsmond
prospect
Posts 5
06-04-05 04:09 PM - Post#443288    

Well, as I recall, Kyte's "victory" in round 3 was impressive looking. Apparently, Brown had a gash over his eye from walking into a cupboard door at home. He had a couple of stitches in it when this fight occurred. Kyte tagged him on that gash and had him bleeding. That's why I got tickets to the next game between Calgary & Edmonton. I knew Brown would seek revenge for that.
Wendelfan1
prospect
Posts 2
06-19-05 11:17 PM - Post#447895    

I hate to say this, but you guys on the Brashear band wagon are missing some facts. Sure, the guys is massive. Maybe even one of the strongest guys to ever play, I'll give you that. In fact, I'm from Fredericton, NB and used to work out in the same gym when Brash played for the Fredericton Canadiens-he looks more like a football player-he's scary as hell.

However, it's a well-known fact in the NHL that Brashear will not fight George Laraque. In fact, big George has even spoke up in Edmonton papers and stated that Brashear will not fight him. He hasn't. He won't.

Now, I ask you who suggested that he be on the top 20, or worse, even top 5, does a top notch heavy weight have anyone in the league whom he will not fight? NO! Did Probert have anyone whom he would not fight? NO. What about Fotiu? No.

Do you see the problem with pushing Brashear as a top-ranked fighter? Racking up wins against Domi does not constitute top-5 stuff.

Oh, and another thought, has anyone seen Donald land a punch on the front on someone's head? See, Brashear's pattented "hug-grapple" combined with his "punch the back of the head" strategy" are just not Bob Probert material. To make the list, the TOP 20 ALL TIME GREATEST, you've got to stand back and throw 'em. To make this list you're profile can't read the following:

Height: 6'2"
Weight: 235lbs.
Age: 29
Fears: George Laraque
chaser
hall of famer
Posts 8410
chaser
06-19-05 11:22 PM - Post#447896    

Quote:

I hate to say this, but you guys on the Brashear band wagon are missing some facts. Sure, the guys is massive. Maybe even one of the strongest guys to ever play, I'll give you that. In fact, I'm from Fredericton, NB and used to work out in the same gym when Brash played for the Fredericton Canadiens-he looks more like a football player-he's scary as hell.

However, it's a well-known fact in the NHL that Brashear will not fight George Laraque. In fact, big George has even spoke up in Edmonton papers and stated that Brashear will not fight him. He hasn't. He won't.

Now, I ask you who suggested that he be on the top 20, or worse, even top 5, does a top notch heavy weight have anyone in the league whom he will not fight? NO! Did Probert have anyone whom he would not fight? NO. What about Fotiu? No.

Do you see the problem with pushing Brashear as a top-ranked fighter? Racking up wins against Domi does not constitute top-5 stuff.

Oh, and another thought, has anyone seen Donald land a punch on the front on someone's head? See, Brashear's pattented "hug-grapple" combined with his "punch the back of the head" strategy" are just not Bob Probert material. To make the list, the TOP 20 ALL TIME GREATEST, you've got to stand back and throw 'em. To make this list you're profile can't read the following:

Height: 6'2"
Weight: 235lbs.
Age: 29
Fears: George Laraque




Welcome to FC.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Brashear has fought Laraque a few times in the NHL...... AND has clearly beat him. All of the fights have came in preseason if I remember correctly.
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!

fiasco001
hall of famer
Posts 5442
fiasco001
06-20-05 01:38 AM - Post#447907    

No, they had two pre-season goes, one wrestling match and one regular season go. The first was a dandy scrap, Laraque opened up on Brashear and was really giving it to him, knocked off his lid and cut the side of his bald mellon. Then Brashear seemed to lose it and pounded LAraque then knocked him to the ice. Great scrap, the best of the bunch, clear win Brashear. The next was a crappy wrestling match in the regular season and Laraque went looking for Brashear. Brashear seemed to want nothing to do with him, and grabbed on when Laraque tried to get going and they fell. Then they had the regular season bout after Laraque had called him out in the papers. Looked like Brashear really wanted to go, but when they locked up, nothing happened. Brashear did throw the only ineffective punches as they fell, so Brashear edged him out. The last time they fought was another pre-season and it was a lot of grappling but Laraque got Brashear up against the glass and landed a couple of minor shots. Win LAraque. The only fight that was of any consquence, was the first one as both guys were not holding back and landed several bombs. As a note in that game, Brashear also pummled Brant Myhers and scored twice and ended up the game's first star. I never hated him so much as that night and I got to see first hand what kind of dick he was in real life after the game. But hey, he did his job that night and showed what he was capable of doing when he wanted to.

bill flower
prospect
Posts 1
08-04-05 04:39 PM - Post#465081    

there were men who by their very nature had so much respect that they rarely fought and one of those was my all time favourite - Larry Robinson, he never lost a fight, never dished out a cheap shot and when he was in Philly after KO'ing Schultz pointed to Saleski and said your next. Didn't happen as Saleski ducked and dived away from Larry and never fought him. Dont ever put the likes of Stan Johnathan or Tiger Williams on a top anything list and not have The Big Bird ahead of them. He once directed a rabid Tiger Williams to the penalty bench cause the linesman couldnt, scolded and made him sit like a good little school boy and behave. In the 70's Robinson was the man!
terrystanjohn
prospect
Posts 1
08-28-05 10:53 AM - Post#475083    

1. Gillies
2. PRobert
3. O'Reilly
4. Bridgeman
5. shultz
6. Wensink
7. b. Wilson
8. BRown
9. Johnathan
10. Kordic



11. Plett
12. Miller
13. Byers
14. Ray
15. Manson
16. Nystrom
17. Holmgren
18. Neely
19. Tocchet
20. McKenzie
The Real Tim Myers
veteran
Posts 486
The Real Tim Myers
08-28-05 02:18 PM - Post#475136    

Neely and Manson in a top 20 list.....Where is Jay Caufield for you.21?.............
"No offense,but acting is alot harder than it looks.." -Posux (Mr. Hollywood)

taz
hall of famer
Posts 9668
taz
09-12-05 03:33 PM - Post#481191    

Hey everybody has their opions on top 20's etc, but I think Neely and Manson, as mentioned above are a bit generous in their rankings! I loved watching Neely fight, but I really don't think he belongs there and Manson doesn't belong in the top 50...but that's just my opinion!!
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Runnin_Amuk
superstar
Posts 4167
Runnin_Amuk
09-17-05 10:19 AM - Post#483029    

Great thread.

Very hard for me to include some of the older fighters in my list, but that is only cause what I have seen of them is old crappy footage, or just not enough to footage to make an accurate decision on where to list them all time. Here's my top 20.

1) Bob Probert- Greatest heavyweight of all time. Not too much else to say that hasen't been said about him already in this thread. Probert did have it all, strong as an ox, reputation, punching power, stamina, balance, and a vicious temper. He was he total package, and never in his career could I really remember saying he didn't do his job. The guy stood the test of time. Never ducked anyone, especially the up and comers that alot of vets think they are too good for. Almost always avenged his losses. Excellent fight card through the years.

2) Dave Brown- Maybe the best lefty in the game ever. I did get a good look at Brownie over the years, and IMO he definately deserves the number 2 slot. Viciuos punching power, size, strenght, and good balance and at times a bigger rep that Probie had. I remember hearing other NHL enforcres claiming he was the best. That says alot, coming from the guys he was fighting.

3) Donald Brashear- This guy lacks one thing IMO and that is the mean streak. I think fear has gotten in his way in the past, but I can't look at any player on the top 20 lists that I thought would beat Brashear outright. His fighting style sucks to watch, but this guy has dismantled everyone he has fought. He is the strongest player I have ever seen, he has punching power, he has speed, and he has balance. Has there ever been a fighter to go on a winning streak like this guy? Even if he was to get thrown back in time, say against a prime Grimson, Probert, or Wilson I still can't see any of them decisively beating this guy. He's too damn srong, and I could only imagine how devastating this guy would be if he only opened up when he fought.

4) Marty McSorley- Another fighter who has stood the test of time. His stamina is legendary, and his fight card includes some of the best in the game. Another guy who was strong as an ox, and maybe he didn't have the best punching power, but he knew his role, and executed it well.

5) Behn Wilson- In the 30 minutes of footage that I have of him, I have to put him at number 5. If I could justify putting him higher I would, but I just don't know that much about the guy. He reminds me alot of Probert. Mean SOB, with all the tools that Probie seemed to have. Size, strenght, balance, and reputation. The one thing that I will never know for sure is what he did on a regular basis, I just don't remember that far back.

6) Clark Gillies- The guy was a monster. Kept alot of people honest when he was on the ice. Vicious punching power, strong as hell. Probably should have fought more. In the fights I have seen of him he was dominating. First guy to ever pussify Dave Schultz.

7) Joey Kocur- My favorite fighter all time. Best puncher in the history of the game. Underrated accuracy, and a mean streak to go with it. Kocur definately had one of the biggest reps ever. His biggest knock are his losses to lesser fighters like Raglan, Malakov, or Krupp etc. But always did his job, no matter how bad his hands were. Totally knew his role. His fight card is suspect, and i'm not so sure about his years in Detroit, but while with the Rangers he never ducked anyone. There were plenty of fighters to duck him during that time thought like a prime Brad May. I wish he would have danced with Dave Brown, I think that would have answered alot of questions about how good he really was. Put McSorley in front of him, only for McSorleys win record which I think is a little better.

8) Nicky Fotiu- Very talented fighter. Definately kept alot of players in check, but still I think the knock on him was his fight card. Should have fought more, alot more, and I think at the time there were players willing to go. In the ones that I have seen of him, he was a very skilled fighter. Some say he's the best ever, but if so why did he not have wars with Nystrom and Gillies? I think he lost to Nystrom later in his career, but during that rivalry he should have had at least 3 or 4 with each of them.

9) Glen Cochrane- Another guy who I only have limited footage of, but in what I have seen Cochrane was an animal. Size, power, skills. His fight with Bobby Nystrom was an eye opener. I have to put him above Nystrom after watching the footage.

10) Bobby Nystrom- If I did this list over in a week or so I may put Nystrom higher. I remember watching Islander/Ranger games as a kid and thinking that other than Fotiu who on the team there was nobody to take on Gillies or Nystrom. They may be the best 1,2 combos of all time. Nystrom was a mean SOB also, and fought to win.

11) Tie Domi- A total freak of nature. Incredible chin, excellent stamina, and another fighter who stood the test of time. Love him or hate him, Tie Domi did his job, and did it well. Maybe the best sparkplug in the game especially in his early years. Tough to fight with his low center of gravity. Excellent fight card, is there anyone that he hasen't taken on? Some real big wins against some of the best the league has to offer. His wars with Rob Ray were incredible. Imagine Fotiu and Nystrom, or Gillies going at it like that?

12) Rob Ray- Gotta put him on the list. Has anyone ever KO'd or TKO'd more fighters than him? Maybe Kocur is up there also, but I can't take anything away from Rob Ray. Never saw a better turnaround in the fighter. He used to get his ass kicked every fight, but he found a way to turn it around. Huge wins over some of the league's best. The guy gave it to Dave Brown!!!

13) Tim Hunter- Always thought he was a little on the boring side, but he was a great technical fighter. Not too many losses at all. Has excellent stamina, and balance. Strong as hell.

14) Curt Fraser- Haven't seen enough of him, but in the little that I have seen I have to include him on the list. Awesome punching power. Devastating fighter.


15) Stu Grimson- Very tough guy, great punching power, strong, and his size made him tough to beat. Lacked good balance though. One of my favorite fighters, Grimson did his job well

16) Craig Berube- The chief was an awesome fighter to watch over the years. His may have lacked punching power and his balance wasen't the best but he fought to win, and had some huge wins in his career. Domi and Probert to name a few. Totally did his job, and totally stood the test of time.

17) Stan Johnathan- Again limited in my footage, but what I have seen of him was excellent. Punching power, and definately fought to win. Great hand speed. Wish I got too see more of him.

18) Tony Twist- Juiced up or not this guy was dominating in his day. Awesome puncher, and limited losses. Looked like he had a hard time finding people to fight him while in his prime. Thought he was the second coming of Joey Kocur, but his accident cut him short. IMO he would have been higher on the list if he played another 4 or 5 years.

19) Sandy McCarthy- Damn!, what happened to this guy? Awesome toe to toe fighter. Took on everybody over the course of his career. Over his first 5 or 6 years in the league he had limited losses, but in the twillight he took a turn for the worse. At times forgot his role, and looked to become a goal scorer, but in his prime he had some serious wins over some great competition. IMO- did enough to make the top 20 list.

20) Jay Miller- Had a great career in Boston and LA. What Miller lacked size, and punching power, he made up for it wilh stamina, and willingness. He did his job well, and didn't duck anyone. Amassed a ton of wins over his long career.

Left out were Barry Beck- IMO didn't do enough. Can remember watching games as kid and thinking where is Barry during all this.

Maloney and Kurtenbeck, Playfair- Only cause I didn't get to see too much if any of thier ability.

HM- Darren Langdon, and Ken Baumgartner.
Chuck. Chuck. It's Marvin - your cousin, Marvin BERRY. You know that new sound you're looking for? Well, listen to this.

DaveRichterfan
all star
Posts 2194
DaveRichterfan
11-30-05 10:51 PM - Post#514961    

1.) Mr. Bob Probert - simply the best and a very long tenure as the heavyweight champ.
2.) Nick Fotiu - Single handedly gave the Rangers respect when called up. Teams could no longer intimidate them.
3.)Joe Kocur - Devastating power and not afraid to take punches to land that KO punch! (and did often). Possibly hardest punch ever landed vs. Jim Kyte.
4.) Dave Brown - one of the most intimidating players ever.
5.) Tony Twist- Coulda been higher sans injury. Rivals Kocur for pure power. Actually punched Rob Ray's face in.
6.)Glen Cochrane (with Flyers)- the original jersey shedder. This guy threw 'em with bad intentions.
7.)Jay Miller this guy routinely fought Dave Brown and John Kordic amongst others.
8.) Clark Gillies: ask Ed Hospodar about his punching power. With different (meaner) temperament, woulda been the best.
9.)Tie Domi: how can you not have this guy here, he is almost always out-sized yet routinely wins his fights. Takes on all comers. Knows how to use his size to his advantage.
10.) Stu Grimson : Impressive fight card and long career. One of my favorites.
11.) Dave Richter : Shorter career than others but this guy was dominating. If you saw him play with Stars, you'd know why he's here.
12.) Marty McSorely : This guy had incredible stamina and won most of his fights late. Provided some of the best fights in NHL history.
13.) Tim Hunter : this guy had to worry about McSorely, Semenko, Jackson and McClelland in the Battle of Alberta with not much help!Could use both hands.
14.) Behn Wilson: As a North Stars fan, I hated this guy (out of respect) not to mention his rep as a Flyer. Ask big John Hillworth about Behn although I doubt he would remember.
15.) Mel Bridgeman - It always seemed like every one of his punches landed! Very entertaining scrapper.
16.) Donald Brashear - Too many impressive victories not to be Top 20.
17.) Peter Worrell- This guy scared me just seeing him on the bench. Nasty
18.) Terry O'Reilly - Devastating southpaw.
19.) Larry Playfair - saw him once annihilate Steve Christoff (yeah I know Stevey wasn't a fighter) but Larry threw him around like a ragdoll. One of the first super heavyweights.
20.) Troy Crowder: Way too short a career to be higher but what a career! For a brief period, HE was THE MAN!

honorable mention: Barry Beck, Stan Jonathan, John Wensink, Jack Carlson (homer pick)


Where's the money Lebowski?

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
12-01-05 12:11 AM - Post#514991    

Very interesting top 20. I can respect the fact you made one & while I might not agree, nobody's opinion is either wrong or right. I like the fact yours is very different from the norm.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

DaveRichterfan
all star
Posts 2194
DaveRichterfan
12-02-05 09:32 AM - Post#515740    

Thanks Badduke, I base my list on the fights I've seen (and I had thousands of fights on video) and third party accounts minus the homer descriptions. Not to discredit any author because nobody is absolutely right, but in many cases you can ascertain the authors residence simply by looking at his list. Thing is that nobody's list is right because it is always opinion. Great thread here!
Where's the money Lebowski?

Diogenes
rookie
Posts 33
12-25-05 12:56 AM - Post#527460    

My top 20 is a bit skewed. I realize Bob Probert is #1, but he doesn’t fit in the time frame I am rating, since I’m only rating fighters that were from the same era. For me, it’s next to impossible to rate 60’s fighters vs. 70’s fighters vs. 80’s fighters vs. 90’s fighters vs. today’s fighters. Different training methods, different sizes, different roles altogether.

I broke them into two tiers totaling 20. Tier One guys are fighters who I think were the most feared by all players in the league. They were, for the most part, the biggest guys on the ice, very intimidating and could turn the lights out on your on any given night.

I think Brown was the toughest out of all them (and I hate Brown – I actually hated all Philly fighters because I was always a Bruins nut).

Tier One – Feared players, least likely you’d want to go with these guys.

Dave Brown – One scary guy when he got the left cranking. Mean. Just at the tail end of all of these guy’s careers (for the most part) and I was hesitant to add him due to the time frame that he was at his best.
Behn Wilson – Never really got hurt in a fight. The longer the fight, the tougher he got.
He was mean and relentless. I always gasp when I see him miss a guy’s chin with that monster uppercut. That was a very scary punch.
Larry Playfair - He was big and tough. He’s the only guy I saw O’Reilly really have trouble with more than one time. Even more so than Gillies, because O’Reilly beat Gillies 2x’s and tied him once. Playfair’s uppercut was also devastating. He was very strong and quick for a big guy.
Dave Semenko – I think he was a cheap shot opportunist. But very tough and mean. He had the look of an enforcer and was very intimidating.
Glen Cochrane - Hyper, mean and very tough. He always seemed possessed in fights.
Nick Fotiu – He was a good technical fighter and would go with anyone. Very fast hands. It seemed like when he hit people it hurt.
Willie Plett - Totally underrated by this site. He was big, quick, mean if needed and a good fighter. Very smart. Would fight you over and over again. No questions he belongs in this category, but I’m sure a lot of people will disagree.
Clark Gillies – Feared by most players in the league when angered. He really took it to you. He hit hard, fast and often.

Tier Two:

Enforcers who were certainly respected for being tough and mean, for the most part not as big as Tier One. Fighters who were not in this or any other category for the most part would challenge these fighters, unlike the fighters in Tier One. Tier Two fighters are not in any order, because I think on any given night, they could all beat each other.

Terry O’Reilly- Fought them all, won most of them, even with terrible balance, a broken finger, two separated shoulders, a snapped knee and in a harness. He had more heart than any player I know. Beat Plett, Gillies 2x’s and was the one of the top 4 toughest (not fighting ability) guys in the league.
Bobby Nystrom – Super fast hands, tough, mean and a gamer. Has the respect of every fighter in the league (maybe not Cochrane and Brown) and was in fantastic shape.
John Wensink – Mean, nasty, didn’t know when to quit. He surprisingly beat Wilson pretty good.
Al Secord – This guy always impressed me with his hand speed and strength.
Dan Maloney – Good technical fighter and very tough in his day. Didn’t see too much of him, but enough to include him on this list.
Dave Schultz – Mean as they come and a good fighter. Doesn’t get enough credit here. If I was a coach and needed an enforcer, during his day, there was none better.
Paul Holmgren – Hit and miss. O’Reilly embarrased him when Holmgren hit him from behind with his stick after the whistle was blown. But he was mean, had a good punch and would do what he needed to win a fight. He was also intimidating.
Chris Nilan – This was one tough, fearless combatant. The more I see him fight, the more I respect him. He fought defensively but needed to because a lot his opponents were bigger and stronger. Had a great and fast right hand.


Tier 3:

These fighters could be in the Tier 2 category, but I don’t think these guys can go with the Tier 1 guys like the Tier 2 guys could. I hated all of these guys other than Stan.

Stan Jonathan – The one exception was his fights with Behn Wilson. His win over Behn shocked me and it was long and a slugfest. He couldn’t throw them with Clark Gillies though. Stan was a bulldog, fearless game guy with a lot of heart and didn’t care how big, strong or mean you were. He was simply a tough SOB.

Mel Bridgman - This guy was very fast, very tough and a great technical fighter in my opinion. He always surprises me by his strength and fighting ability. He could go with Tier 2 guys on any given night, but not the Tier 1 guys.

Gary Howatt – Very mean, very tough, scrappy, dirty and fearless. A real hair-puller and cheap shot guy when he went into a tirade. Cashman kicked his ass good (Can you tell I’m a Bruins fan or what?). But, give the guy credit, he was a bastard to deal with and stuck up for his teammates. I would want him on my team any day of the week.

*Miller, McSorley, Hunter, Tocchet, Byers, Probert, Kocur, Grimson, Domi, Kordic, Brashear, etc… were all guys who were not in the time frame I am commenting on.

**Gassoff, Ferguson, Jimmy Mann, Gordie Howe and Jack Carlson and are all players I understand were very tough guys and could easily go in Tier 2, and maybe even Tier 1 during their day. I have never really seen these guys fight and couldn’t figure out where to put them without seeing first hand what they were capable of.

Twist18
regular
Posts 145
Twist18
01-15-06 12:37 AM - Post#536243    

Guys that were just plain scary to fight against because they were true enforcers of fear! In no particular order:

Probert, Brown, Kocur, Twist, Semenko, Wilson, Grimson, Gaetz, McSorley, Laraque, Worrell, McCarthy, Nystrom, Schultz, Gillies, Cochrane.
buffbomber
prospect
Posts 10
03-02-06 01:50 PM - Post#555724    

Can't have a to 10 or even 5 or 3 list without the late John Kordic...can't take any list seriously without him.
Mertsi
prospect
Posts 7
Mertsi
03-12-06 02:34 PM - Post#560304    

Talking about Simon. I'd say he had all the tools to become long time champion but maybe his injuries and new role in scoring line prevented that. At his best he was awesome.
Perrrrkele!!!

Jay Wensink
prospect
Posts 16
03-23-06 09:22 AM - Post#567871    

I don't know how anyone doesn't have Nystrom in their top 5/He wore no helmet/I think my brother
John is overated out here
OverHand Lefty
rookie
Posts 25
OverHand Lefty
03-27-06 10:16 AM - Post#570203    

Hey guys, 1st time poster here!

My list would look something like...

1. Bob Probert
2. Dave Brown
3. Clark Gilles
4. Behn Wilson
5. Nick Fotiu
6. Paul Holmgren
7. Dave Schultz
8. Marty McSorley
9. Terry O'Reilly
10. Stan Jonathan
11. Bob Nystrom
12. Tiger Williams
13. Larry Playfair
14. Joey Kocur
15. Mel Bridgman
16. Tony Twist
17. Tie Domi
18. Dave Semenko
19. Ed Hospodar
20. Craig Berube
.......
21. John Kordic
22. Stu Grimson
23. John Wensink
24. Dave Ritcher
25. Chris Simon
"Don't Piss On My Back And Tell Me It's Raining" - Clint

Knuckles Nilan
rookie
Posts 32
05-02-06 03:58 PM - Post#588554    

1. Probert
2. Ferguson
3. Shultz
4. Gillies
5. Twist
6. Nilan
7. D. Brown
8. Johnathan
9. Samenko
10.Laraque
Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
09-03-06 06:29 PM - Post#631745    

Tim Hunter sure doesn't get near enough recognition.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

tonygus
prospect
Posts 2
09-15-06 01:07 PM - Post#636728    

I have to say that Mel Bridgman has to be there, He was one mean fighter. He often showed no mercy.
John_P
superstar
Posts 3647
John_P
10-08-06 08:56 PM - Post#648632    

1. Probert
2. D. Brown
3. B. Wilson
4. Kocur
5. D. Brashear
6. Fotiu
7. Playfair
8. Gillies
9. Semenko
10. Laraque
11. McSorley
12. Cochrane
13. Hunter
14. Miller
15. Twist
16. Domi
17. Plett
18. Jonathon
19. Nystrom
20. J. Kordic
"And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has, in showing that religion and gov't will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together." James Madison

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
01-12-07 08:15 PM - Post#697633    

My new & revised top 10. (Unconfirmed)

Bob Probert
Behn Wilson
Dave Brown
Donald Brashear
Tie Domi
Marty McSorley
Tim Hunter
Georges Laraque
Bob Nystrom
Larry Playfair

David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
01-20-07 11:53 AM - Post#700862    

Here is my revised Top 20.

1 Bob Probert
2 Behn Wilson
3 Dave Brown
4 Donald Brashear
5 Marty McSorley
6 Georges Laraque
7 Tim Hunter
8 Joe Kocur
9 Stu Grimson
10 Larry Playfair
11 Bob Nystrom
12 Chris Nilan
13 Tie Domi
14 John Kordic
15 Jay Miller
16 Sandy McCarthy
17 Nick Fotiu
18 Craig Berube
19 Gino Odjick
20 Jim McKenzie

I guess about 14-20 could be in just about any order. McCarthy would definately be top 10 if his career didn't go south after leaving Calgary.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

FitzG
journeyman
Posts 55
01-23-07 07:16 PM - Post#702442    

Boston Bruins Ferny Flaman dominated the 50's fighting all the toughest guys from his era including a win over Gordie Howe Dec.3rd 1951 where the article states "Flaman not only challenged Howe and landed a couple punches but ripped the jersey off Howe's back and Howe wanted nothing to do with him." Flaman wasn't a big talker like Fontinato he just threw em' and didn't like to clinch. 6'3" Jean Beliveau said the only player he ever worried about on the ice was Ferny Flaman and John Ferguson has Flaman listed in his top ten toughest all time. Here's a few others Flaman has fought: Red Kelly, Butch Bouchard,Wild Bill Eznicki, Rocket Richard, bear wrestler Marcel Bonin, Kent Douglas (picked him up and threw him into the goal in 1964)Leo Labine, Doug Mohns,and destroyed the tough German Gus Mortson. He was the real deal highly repected around the league where his specialty was devasting body and hip checks.
playoffbeard
legend
Posts 10835
playoffbeard
01-23-07 07:39 PM - Post#702444    

Badduke - What's the reason for you dropping Domi from 5th all the way to 13th in just one week? Not that I disagree with his ranking at #13, as I have him around 10-15 all time.

juha82
legend
Posts 10249
07-11-07 04:41 AM - Post#779845    

Here is my Top20 of all the time:

1.Bob Probert
2.Dave Brown
3.Nick Fotiu
4.Clark Gillies
5.Behn Wilson
6.Tony Twist
7.Donald Brashear
8.Georges Laraque
9.Joey Kocur
10.Marty McSorley
11.Sandy McCarthy
12.Bob Nystrom
13.Stu Grimson
14.John Kordic
15.Jay Miller
16.Stan Jonathan
17.Tie Domi
18.Dave Semenko
19.Chris Nilan
20.Jim McKenzie

Honourable mentions:

Paul Laus
Larry Playfair
Chris Simon
Ken Baumgartner
WS
captain
Posts 630
WS
12-21-07 10:15 PM - Post#847509    

Some of you guys have Brashear and Laraque ahead of McSorley, Nystrom, Domi, and Kocur.

Ouch.
R.I.P. Bob....I love you.

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
12-22-07 08:28 AM - Post#847566    

Brashear owned Domi.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Jobu
superstar
Posts 4030
Jobu
01-15-08 11:24 AM - Post#859682    

1. Probert
2. Brown
3. Wilson
4. Gilles
5. Fotiu
6. Playfair
7. Nystrom
8. Semenko
9. McSorley
10. Kocur
11. Twist
12. Domi
13. Kordic
14. Grimson
15. Ray
16. McCarthy
17. McKenzie
18. Clark
19. Cochrane
20. Wensink
"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."

srehm1
veteran
Posts 468
srehm1
06-05-08 03:37 PM - Post#922007    

My all-time top 20:

1. Bob Probert
2. Behn Wilson
3. Dave Brown
4. Larry Playfair
5. Joe Kocur
6. Bobby Nystrom
7. Tony Twist
8. Sandy McCarthy
9. Marty McSorley
10. Clark Gillies
11. Craig Berube
12. Jim McKenzie
13. Tie Domi
14. Dave Semenko
15. Donald Brashear
16. Stan Jonathan
17. Georges Laraque
18. Ken Baumgartner
19. Chris Simon
20. Stu Grimson
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

juha82
legend
Posts 10249
06-05-08 03:44 PM - Post#922009    

A very good list Shrem1(:
Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
06-05-08 05:06 PM - Post#922037    

I know it's a personal opinion, so it can be whatever they feel, but I believe Semenko is way too high & Hunter should definitely be on the list & Gillies shouldn't because he rarely fought. I think Grimson should be higher, & Twist knocked to the bottom if top 20 at all.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

srehm1
veteran
Posts 468
srehm1
06-05-08 07:51 PM - Post#922086    

  • Badduke14 Said:
I know it's a personal opinion, so it can be whatever they feel, but I believe Semenko is way too high & Hunter should definitely be on the list & Gillies shouldn't because he rarely fought. I think Grimson should be higher, & Twist knocked to the bottom if top 20 at all.


Thanks for the response, Badduke14.

I put Twist in at #7 because he was very dominant during the mid-late 90's and is possibly the last champ of that great era of fighting. His fight card doesn't do it for me in some respects, but you cannot question his dominance.

Semenko was part of the Wilson-Playfair-Semenko triumverant that reigned during the very lat 70's through to the mid 80's. All three of those fighters can claim a portion of the title during that time. His fight card is very good and he was one of the best true "enforcers" in the game.

Hunter is a great pick and I have him in my top-25 along with Kordic. I can easily see each one of them finding there way in there.

Gillies was a recognized champ and one of the most feared of his day. I don't really look at his last 5 or so years because he didn't fight that much and fighting had changed in the game. Gillies was a good player and he didn't want to be in the box when he should be on the ice. I feel he gets screwed sometimes because he was a good player who just happened to be a good fighter. You can say the same for Nystrom although Nystrom fought steadily throughout his entire career and didn't have huge drop-offs in fights.

Grimson is one of my all-time favorite fighters. I think he won over a hundred fights during his career. I personally think he struggled against the elite of his era. He was exciting and fun to watch and may have been champ for a year near the end of his career. His staggering won-loss record keep him in my top-20, but his record against the best of his day keep him out of my top-10.

Everyone weighs different criteria when putting together an all-time list. Some people discount fighters because they may have not fought enough or were not dominant enough. Some get slammed for not being exciting enough. It's all a matter of opinion.

I also try to take era into account when I put together an all-time list. It's easy to say Berube's better then this guy so he should be there. Playfair was one of the most feared fighters of his day. I'm not sure he even had a hundred fights in his career. Fighters from his era generally fought less then their heavyweight era counterparts. Around like 84 or 85 a new breed of fighter began to emerge. The era of the pure DH fighter had come upon us. Fighters were fighting at extraordinary rates and each team had several tough guys to send out there.

That's why it's important to me to take a fighters era into context when ranking fighters. Twist may not have fought as much as some others, but he became a dominant fighter in the greatest fistic era there was. That has to count for something.

Anyone can take 20 guys from Probert's era and make a legitimate case for them being in the top-20. By doing that you would not be taking era in account. You can't just dismiss a fighter because he didn't "fight enough". Unless, of course, that is a factor that you weigh heavily when ranking fighters all-time.

Again thanks for the response, Badduke14.
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
06-07-08 02:18 PM - Post#922620    

  • srehm1 Said:
Gillies was a recognized champ and one of the most feared of his day. I don't really look at his last 5 or so years because he didn't fight that much and fighting had changed in the game.





Anyone can take 20 guys from Probert's era and make a legitimate case for them being in the top-20. By doing that you would not be taking era in account. You can't just dismiss a fighter because he didn't "fight enough". Unless, of course, that is a factor that you weigh heavily when ranking fighters all-time.


Looking at Gillies fight card (dropyourgloves), it was much more than just the last 5 years of his career, (where he had 21 fights) but his entire card. Only 1 time did he have double digits in fights! To me, that is a joke as well the fact that he didn't fight some of the toughest in that era.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

srehm1
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Posts 468
srehm1
06-08-08 01:04 AM - Post#922749    

  • Badduke14 Said:
  • srehm1 Said:
Gillies was a recognized champ and one of the most feared of his day. I don't really look at his last 5 or so years because he didn't fight that much and fighting had changed in the game.

You make a valid point, Badduke.

Gillies did not fight a lot. Even during his "prime" he didn't fight a lot.

I think his era comes into play a bit here.

During his era the very elite fighters in the league did not fight as much as their late 80's or 90's counterparts. In fact, there was a core group of good fighters at that time and they fought at the same rate as Gillies. Wilson, Jonathan, Playfair, Bridgman, etc. The difference here is that they didn't have the dramatic drop off that Gillies did. In Gillies day the elite fighters didn't have to fight more then 8-9 times a year. Thats why guys like Wilson, Playfair, Semenko, Jonathan, Wensink, Bridgman, etc only had around 100 or so fights during their entire careers.

There was still fighters who fought a ton -- O'Reilly, Williams, Howatt, Plett, etc. but those fighters were not champs or really contenders for that matter. Some of them might have crept into a few season top-10 lists, but non of them were elite fighters for the most part.

As time went on fighting had changed and fighters began to fight more. In fact a lot of the fighting was suddenly being done by less players as the enforcer role became specialized. Suddenly you had fighters with hundreds of fights and stacked fight cards.

I don't knock Gillies because he didn't fight a lot. I take him from the beginning of his career until the contraversial TKO loss to Behn Wilson in the 83-84 season. After that I don't care because he stopped fighting. During that 10 year run I credit him for (74-84), he fought O'Reilly, Schultz, Holt, Magnuson, Plett, Wilson, Moose Dupont, Jerry Korab, Secord, Hoyda, Tiger Williams, Gare, Jonathan, Hospodar, and Polonich. Between 74-84 those were good guys to have on your fight card. I also must say that he was the champ or at least held a portion of the title. I find it difficult to argue with that.

I personally tend to lean towards fighters who fight more. I also tend to lean towards fighters who may have been champ for a time.

good post, badduke





Anyone can take 20 guys from Probert's era and make a legitimate case for them being in the top-20. By doing that you would not be taking era in account. You can't just dismiss a fighter because he didn't "fight enough". Unless, of course, that is a factor that you weigh heavily when ranking fighters all-time.


Looking at Gillies fight card (dropyourgloves), it was much more than just the last 5 years of his career, (where he had 21 fights) but his entire card. Only 1 time did he have double digits in fights! To me, that is a joke as well the fact that he didn't fight some of the toughest in that era.

R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

Giz
legend
Posts 10137
Giz
06-08-08 04:36 AM - Post#922751    

what's wrong with you guys, actually taking into consideration how good of a fighter a guy was, and not just how many fights he was in?

Gillies' reputation and prowess as a fighter are well documented here at FC, you need only glance through opinions concerning Gilles from some of the men who played in his era, that are in FC's Interview Forum, nevermind what any of our members think of him.

Badduke you appear to be somehow still in denial over this, evident by the one-man crusade. doesn't make much sense. reminds me of when Bob McGill said "hell no" was Dave Manson ever a top ten guy in any single season, and a certain former member of FC tried to dismiss even McGill's opinion!

Badduke14
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Badduke14
06-08-08 05:07 AM - Post#922752    

I've never once denied that Gillies was one of the better fighters during his day, but it doesn't warrant him being considered one of the best ever. Why would it? He rarely fought. To be considered one of the best, a guy would have to fight pretty much everyone to see how he fares vs the opposition. So by your reasoning, a guy could have 2 NHL fights, win both, & you'd consider him #1.
Fight card, win/loss % is by far the way to rank a guy.

Also, this is much more than a 1 person crusade, epecially if you go on HF.com. There, people are allowed to express an opinion & not get "gang raped" if they have a different opinion.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

srehm1
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srehm1
06-08-08 11:12 AM - Post#922787    

  • Badduke14 Said:
I've never once denied that Gillies was one of the better fighters during his day, but it doesn't warrant him being considered one of the best ever. Why would it? He rarely fought. To be considered one of the best, a guy would have to fight pretty much everyone to see how he fares vs the opposition. So by your reasoning, a guy could have 2 NHL fights, win both, & you'd consider him #1.
Fight card, win/loss % is by far the way to rank a guy.

Also, this is much more than a 1 person crusade, epecially if you go on HF.com. There, people are allowed to express an opinion & not get "gang raped" if they have a different opinion.


Fight card and won-loss% are great ways to rank fighters. That's why I have Gillies ranked so high. His fight card is good for that era. If you dismiss his card you are dismissing that era of fighting. As I stated earlier, Gillies fought who he was supposed to fight for that era. Sure he didn't fight Semenko or Playfair, but the argument can swing over to them as well. Playfair never fought Gillies or Cochrane. Maybe he's overrated too?

During Gillies' era he fought a bunch of top notch fighters as I stated before. I don't want to spend too much time on this and I appreciate your response, but we'll have to agree to disagree. Gillies fight card isn't stacked because the era for stacked fight cards had not come yet. Gillies was an old man by the time the heavyweight era came to be. Do you knock him because he didn't fight Berube or Kordic? The man had quit fighting by that time.

Gillies fight card is just fine compared to other fighters during his era. He had 2 fights with Wilson and fought O'Reilly like 5 times. That's like a fighter today fighting Laraque 2 times and Colton Orr 5 times. A champ and a solid contender. What's wrong with that? He didn't duck anyone. Fighting Wilson, Jonathan, O'Reilly, etc. -- those were top notch fighters at the time.

I do post over at HF.com and the same argument takes place over there as well. Many people knock Gilies for the same reasons you state. Many people also support Gillies for the same reason I state. I don't know about people ganging up on anybody unless you're coming from left field with a statement or opinion.

Please, Badduke14, recheck Gillies fight card and compare it to other fighters from his era -- not to the heavyweight era or the current era. If you look at it that way you can see he fought the tough guys he was supposed to fight. Like I said I take Gillies from 74-84 and after that it's a wash. He stopped fighting and actually found himself out of a role he had once been so effective at.

Anyhow, nice back and forth, Badduke14.
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

Badduke14
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Badduke14
06-08-08 12:00 PM - Post#922791    

I have checked out his card many times, (dropyourgloves) & there are some glaring ommissions. Here are some of the guys that he didn't fight, or only fought twice, once near the beginning of his career, & one at the end.

Plett 2x
Wilson 2x
Holmgren 1x

Hutchison 0
Wensink 0
McIlhargey 0
Gassoff 0
Maloney 0
Fraser 0
Semenko 0
Playfair 0
T.Hunter 0
Snepsts 0
Fotiu 0
Kelly (philly) 0
JB Kelly 0
R.Anderson 0

Granted, these are not all heavyweights, but all were fairly frequent fighters or guys considered tough during his day. Obviously he never fought Nystrom or Howatt but this is what I am basing my argument around. You say he fought who he was supposed to fight, & I completely disagree & my list shows how many of the heavyweights he didn't fight.
You go on to say, take Gillies from 74-84, ok, well then there are even more guys he never fought. Kyte, Beck, Nilan, J.Carlson, Wells, G.Mulvey, Cochrane, Kluzak, Brian Sutter, D.Brown etc...
Like I said, these are not all heavyweights, but overall his card is extremely weak & not worthy of a top 20 ranking.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

srehm1
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srehm1
06-08-08 03:22 PM - Post#922820    

that's a quality list right there, Badduke14.

I hate to say this and keep going on and on with this suddenly tiring topic, but Wilson had some omissions on his card as well. Playfair also had glaring omissions, same for Cochrane. Nystrom had omissions, Jonathan had omissions. Fotiu had some major omissions. Again they didn't fight the way they did in the late 80's mid 90's. During those years everyone fought everyone 10 times over. Some of those guys you mentioned played in a different conference then Gillies so how often would he have seen Hutch if he was playing in Toronto or Chicago? Gillies played for the Isles and they didn't catch up too much with non-conference fighters -- although it did happen. The game was centered around divisional rivalries and you saw more of those teams.

Gillies, like I said, was a recognized champ who had a decent run and faded real bad in his last years. He didn't fade fighting-ability wise but rather inactivity wise. Also I must point out that Gillies didn't like fighting. Another reason for the drop in fight totals. This guy never liked to fight yet fought enough and at a high enough level to be a recognized champ. I find that truly striking.

I had heard that his inability to fight often and accept an "enforcer" role with the Isles was one of the reasons why he left NY. Regardless he was a good fighter in his hey day in my opinion and worhty of a spot on my top-20. He may not be worthy of your top-20 (oh, by the way could you provide one so I can try and hack it to pieces as well? lol, just kidding) but he is worthy of mine.

This has been a nice back and forth Badduke -- even if we agree to disagree on Gillies.
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

the hammer
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Posts 3916
06-08-08 03:40 PM - Post#922826    

Gillies also fought Schultz twice and Secord, 2 more excellent fighters. Was Hoyda mentioned?
Badduke14
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Badduke14
06-08-08 04:27 PM - Post#922838    

  • the hammer Said:
Gillies also fought Schultz twice and Secord, 2 more excellent fighters. Was Hoyda mentioned?


We aren't debating so much as who he fought, as who he didn't fight. Face it, Gillies card is weak, & littered with many lesser fighters. He doesn't deserve to be mentioned with the alltime greats.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Giz
legend
Posts 10137
Giz
06-08-08 08:41 PM - Post#922871    

  • Badduke14 Said:
I've never once denied that Gillies was one of the better fighters during his day, but it doesn't warrant him being considered one of the best ever. Why would it? He rarely fought. To be considered one of the best, a guy would have to fight pretty much everyone to see how he fares vs the opposition. So by your reasoning, a guy could have 2 NHL fights, win both, & you'd consider him #1.
Fight card, win/loss % is by far the way to rank a guy.

Also, this is much more than a 1 person crusade, epecially if you go on HF.com. There, people are allowed to express an opinion & not get "gang raped" if they have a different opinion.


gang-raped? sounds just a bit hyper-sensitive. there are plenty of people in the world who don't think for themselves, but i don't think anyone who comes here shares the same opinion on Gillies, just for the sake of sharing the same opinion. and anyone is allowed to express an opinion here, if it sounds a ways off though there are way too many knowledgable people around (not that you aren't) who are going to want to sort someone out on it. or at least get it straight in public view. it's not like we're re-writing the past here. the fighters are why we are here, it's about them, not us. we're not worried about someone who feels like they're a victim because no one agrees with them, that's their issue. as a Moderator i can't apologize for having some responsibility to help keep things straight. i mean hell i know you'd rather not log in here and read some YouTube-like mess of comments.

i don;t look much to HF.com, not that it's not a fun site. if for no other reason, FC tends to cut to the chase a lot quicker. always did. posts have some meat on them and i always found them more informative, with less sifting through to do. i do understand your stance, but if you have to go there to find someone who agrees with you, that's not saying much.

now again, you don't have to hear the opinions of too many of Gillies' peers to know Gillies was avoided for a reason. is it outside the realms of possibilty that there were guys did not want to try him? myself personally, i don't have a problem with Gillies being a guy who did not fight just for show, there have always been enough guys who did.

the 2 fights/2 wins remark, i don't know, not much sense in presuming anything about me Badduke. you said that Gillies can't be rated so high since he didnt fight certain guys and we don't know how he fared against them. this is why i dont bother with the lists so much myself because you get to where you got guys from different eras who merit a high ranking, but since they never did or will fight each other, you're left scratching your head too much wondering how it would have played out. they're all tough as hell, most of these guys were capable of handling anyone on any given night.

Giz
legend
Posts 10137
Giz
06-08-08 08:45 PM - Post#922872    

  • Badduke14 Said:
  • the hammer Said:
Gillies also fought Schultz twice and Secord, 2 more excellent fighters. Was Hoyda mentioned?


We aren't debating so much as who he fought, as who he didn't fight. Face it, Gillies card is weak, & littered with many lesser fighters. He doesn't deserve to be mentioned with the alltime greats.


mercy, talk about YouTube comments!

srehm1
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Posts 468
srehm1
06-08-08 09:50 PM - Post#922891    

  • Badduke14 Said:
Here is my revised Top 20.

1 Bob Probert
2 Behn Wilson
3 Dave Brown
4 Donald Brashear
5 Marty McSorley
6 Georges Laraque
7 Tim Hunter
8 Joe Kocur
9 Stu Grimson
10 Larry Playfair
11 Bob Nystrom
12 Chris Nilan
13 Tie Domi
14 John Kordic
15 Jay Miller
16 Sandy McCarthy
17 Nick Fotiu
18 Craig Berube
19 Gino Odjick
20 Jim McKenzie

I guess about 14-20 could be in just about any order. McCarthy would definately be top 10 if his career didn't go south after leaving Calgary.


Good list, Badduke.

I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but why Nilan so high? In 308 fights Nilan went 64-45-55 (DYG). Not exactly dominant enough for the 12 spot in my opinion. Especially if you're ranking him ahead of Sandman. McCarthy's career may not have been what it was in Calgary, but what he did in Calgary was extraordinary to say the least.

In his first season he bolted up the charts and may have been champ for the 93-94, 94-95 seasons. In 164 fights Sandman went/is 83-29-34. He fought some of the very best all-time and fought in the best era for fighting. He was a champ for at least 2 seasons and his record against the very elite is solid to say the least.

Not since Dave Brown first came into the league has there been a fighter so dominant so early in his career. hell it took Probert a few years to be considered a champ and this kid did it in his first year. So he may have tapered off a bit since he left Calgary but please, don't try and sell me on the idea that Chris Nilan was a better fighter and more deserving of his lofty rank in your top-20.

Nilan was a grappler/puncher and may have been a top-10 fighter for one season his whole career. Sure he fought more then Sandman, but he fared poorly against the elite of his era. He beat Playfair and Brown, but also suffered multiple losses to them. He had a non-eventer vs. Probert, but otherwise did little against top-flight fighters.

Also anyone who has Fotiu in their top-20 shouldn't say a word about me having Gillies in my top-20. You want to talk about questionable fight cards? Check out uncle Nicky's. Then try and tell me Gillies shouldn't be in the top-20. Unbelievable that you take a guy who had only 3 years of solid fighting under his belt for his entire career ahead of Gillies. fotiu fought almost half of his career fights between 76-79. He went on cruise control the rest of his career and never even approached double digits in fights for any season (in fact I don't think he fought more then 6 times in a single year in that span). He even had a few years where he only fought twice.

Aside from his wins against Holmgren, his one win vs. Wilson, and his win over Tim Hunter, Fotiu never beat anyone of significance. In fact I don't believe he was ever a champ in my opinion.

Just a few thoughts and I know it's all opinion. i like the rest of your list and like the appearance of Gino in a top-20.

Keep up the good work, badduke and do some checking on Fotiu and don't listen to anyone who tells you that because he beat Jim "Bam Bam" Cunningham 3 times in a preseason game, that it's any indication he was an all-timer.

good list
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

Badduke14
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Posts 4786
Badduke14
06-08-08 10:51 PM - Post#922901    

It's funny that you mention Fotiu, because I wouldn't put him in my TOP 25 now. Guys like Berube, Bomber, Ray & Kyte would all be ahead of Fotiu. I believe Fotiu, as Gillies did, relied more on word of mouth & a couple big wins, more than anything.

As for McCarthy, if you have him ahead of Nilan, no problem from me. He suffered some real bad losses late in his career, but when he was with the Flames, like you said, he was champ for at least 2 seasons.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Giz
legend
Posts 10137
Giz
06-08-08 11:25 PM - Post#922903    

srehm1- take those DYG results with a grain of salt; often times if one guy lands a glancing punch and the other guy landed zero, it'll get rated as a narrow win/loss. here or elsewhere it might have been judged to be a comeplete shit fight.

srehm1
veteran
Posts 468
srehm1
06-08-08 11:43 PM - Post#922904    

  • Giz Said:
srehm1- take those DYG results with a grain of salt; often times if one guy lands a glancing punch and the other guy landed zero, it'll get rated as a narrow win/loss. here or elsewhere it might have been judged to be a comeplete shit fight.


I agree, Giz, I only use them as a guide and always make mention if a fighter has not been reviewed thoroughly. I also try to concentrate on actual fights because a lot of times they will count certain double-minor situations as fights. Two guys squaring off and then falling down means nothing to me. I just deal with fighting majors and not shoving matches.

I do like the fact that you can get preseason fight card info as well. But, like you said, you have to take some of the results with a grain of salt. They do a good job now of weeding out homer reviews or biased reviews. As long as the fight has been reviewed a number of times I think it's ok.

Thanks for the heads up, Giz.
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

boll40
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Posts 1814
boll40
04-19-09 10:28 AM - Post#1058925    

Probert
Wilson
Ferguson
Brown
McSorley
Twist
Schultz
O'Reilly
Kocur
Fotiu
Nilan
Domi
Playfair
Gillies
Nystrom
Miller
Grimson
Holmgren
Cochrane
Belak
He's garbage to me and I have no respect for him at all.
-Arron Asham on Matt Cooke

ROBBIE
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Posts 2947
ROBBIE
04-19-09 11:27 AM - Post#1058953    

Hate or Like him but dont you think Brash deserves to be in top 20 Boll ?
"That's right... I've killed women and children. Killed just about everything that walks or crawled at one time, or another. And, I'm here to kill you, little Bill. For what you did to Ned."


ROBBIE
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ROBBIE
04-19-09 11:29 AM - Post#1058954    

Nice this thread started almost five years ago
"That's right... I've killed women and children. Killed just about everything that walks or crawled at one time, or another. And, I'm here to kill you, little Bill. For what you did to Ned."


boll40
all star
Posts 1814
boll40
04-19-09 11:39 AM - Post#1058957    

I don't think he should. This year he hasn't impressed me at all. All of the guys on that list can beat him easily.
He's garbage to me and I have no respect for him at all.
-Arron Asham on Matt Cooke

juha82
legend
Posts 10249
04-19-09 12:04 PM - Post#1058968    

Come on!
Brashera have to be on Top20 list.
Kramer
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Posts 36390
Kramer
04-19-09 12:06 PM - Post#1058970    

I don't know about 'easily' Boll.

I think we had this debate once or twice and Brashear does deserve top 20 status in most of our minds.
"Now, now, lay off Detroit. Them people is living in 'Mad Max' times." -Moe Syzlak

RIP To The King - Bob Probert 1965-2010

juha82
legend
Posts 10249
04-19-09 12:07 PM - Post#1058972    

Hmmm, where is Sandy McCarthy?
OK/good list, but not great one.-
Peatycap
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Peatycap
04-19-09 02:42 PM - Post#1059059    

Ferguson? O'Reilly? Belak? Nilan? Watch more tapes then post a new list.

Bruins29
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Posts 3669
Bruins29
04-19-09 04:28 PM - Post#1059162    

  • boll40 Said:
I don't think he should. This year he hasn't impressed me at all. All of the guys on that list can beat him easily.



No, they cant.
ROBBIE
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Posts 2947
ROBBIE
04-19-09 04:35 PM - Post#1059166    

Ok Boll
"That's right... I've killed women and children. Killed just about everything that walks or crawled at one time, or another. And, I'm here to kill you, little Bill. For what you did to Ned."


The_Body_Bagger
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Posts 271
The_Body_Bagger
02-10-10 01:24 AM - Post#1166267    

1.) Bob Probert
2.) Nick Fotiu
3.) Clark Gilles
4.) Behn Wilson
5.) Dave Brown
6.) Curt Fraser
7.) Donald Brashear
8.) Joey Kocur
9.) Bobby Nystrom
10.) Larry Playfair
11.) Glen Cochrane
12.) Tie Domi
13.) Georges Laraque
14.) Stu Grimson
15.) Jim Mckenzie
16.) Marty Mcsorely
17.) Dave Semenko
18.) Craig Berube
19.) Tony Twist
20.) Chris Simon
A man doesn't automatically get my respect, he has to get down in the dirt and beg for it.

The_Body_Bagger
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The_Body_Bagger
02-10-10 01:29 AM - Post#1166268    

  • srehm1 Said:
My all-time top 20:

1. Bob Probert
2. Behn Wilson
3. Dave Brown
4. Larry Playfair
5. Joe Kocur
6. Bobby Nystrom
7. Tony Twist
8. Sandy McCarthy
9. Marty McSorley
10. Clark Gillies
11. Craig Berube
12. Jim McKenzie
13. Tie Domi
14. Dave Semenko
15. Donald Brashear
16. Stan Jonathan
17. Georges Laraque
18. Ken Baumgartner
19. Chris Simon
20. Stu Grimson


Good list but no Nick Fotiu? Seriously?
A man doesn't automatically get my respect, he has to get down in the dirt and beg for it.

Jobu
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Posts 4030
Jobu
02-10-10 01:30 AM - Post#1166269    

Not to jump on the last post but can someone convince me why Nick Fotiu should be number two on anyone's list? Seems to me like there are at least a handful of fighters that most definitely should be ranked higher.
"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."

The_Body_Bagger
veteran
Posts 271
The_Body_Bagger
02-10-10 01:33 AM - Post#1166270    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V-LCHDLD5I

The same could be said for Gilles. Its just my top 20 of whom I considered to be the best.

FWIW numbers 2 through 5 are pretty subjective and can be rated in just about any order. Those guys all of them are legends and on any night they could go either way with the decisions being 50/50.
A man doesn't automatically get my respect, he has to get down in the dirt and beg for it.

Jobu
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Jobu
02-10-10 01:34 AM - Post#1166271    

Great response.
"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."

srehm1
veteran
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srehm1
02-10-10 07:53 AM - Post#1166325    

  • The_Body_Bagger Said:
1.) Bob Probert
2.) Nick Fotiu
3.) Clark Gilles
4.) Behn Wilson
5.) Dave Brown
6.) Curt Fraser
7.) Donald Brashear
8.) Joey Kocur
9.) Bobby Nystrom
10.) Larry Playfair
11.) Glen Cochrane
12.) Tie Domi
13.) Georges Laraque
14.) Stu Grimson
15.) Jim Mckenzie
16.) Marty Mcsorely
17.) Dave Semenko
18.) Craig Berube
19.) Tony Twist
20.) Chris Simon



Hey it's cool and nice list BTW. Personally I'm not in love with Fotiu like some people seem to be. I do like him, but in all honesty it's really splitting hairs with these lists. When it comes to Fotiu, I'll leave the debates to those who have seen him play and can more accurately describe his impact. For me the guy simply did not overly impress me. A win over Wilson, Holmgren Hunter and Nilan is not top-10 stuff when it comes to my list. Since I put together that list your quoting like 2 years ago (thanks for only singling out my list btw) I've made a few changes here and there. Fotiu still doesn't make the cut with me - certainly not #2 all time I can tell you that. But in all honesty it's my list and I just couldn't find a spot for him in the top-20. Some can say he is a bona fide top-5 guy or that he scared brave men into shitting their pants and how his cold stare was enforcement enough but not for me.

I've seen all his fights available on tape or dvd and I'm impressed by the fact that he was able to not take any major losses during his career but with a card like that it's understandable. Maybe a NY fan can describe his enforcing during that time but I've never been blown away by him. I would also never place Curt Fraser in the top-10 all time but it's just my own subjective opinion man.

If I did a top-10 or top-20 all time list in 1990, Fotiu would probably be on there. I just think so many great fighters have come and gone since then that have had better careers with many more great fights than what Fotiu offered. Now maybe Fotiu was a great enforcer but he simply relied on being the Rangers shield, rather than their sword and fought very little and relied on his reputation.
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

sambubba
veteran
Posts 262
02-13-10 06:06 PM - Post#1168400    

There are a lot of us old timers who saw him play and punk down Probert and others--see Mark Topaz's comments on this--and it was obvious he was the real deal. When someone like Behn Wilson did not want a second go-around which he was offered several times--that should speak volumes.
Crosby87
hall of famer
Posts 5631
02-13-10 06:39 PM - Post#1168422    

  • sambubba Said:
There are a lot of us old timers who saw him play and punk down Probert and others--see Mark Topaz's comments on this--and it was obvious he was the real deal. When someone like Behn Wilson did not want a second go-around which he was offered several times--that should speak volumes.



Probably because Probert didn't want to end the old farts career.

srehm1
veteran
Posts 468
srehm1
02-13-10 10:37 PM - Post#1168628    

  • sambubba Said:
There are a lot of us old timers who saw him play and punk down Probert and others--see Mark Topaz's comments on this--and it was obvious he was the real deal. When someone like Behn Wilson did not want a second go-around which he was offered several times--that should speak volumes.



Yeah, I know. Probert was so scared.
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

justice010
prospect
Posts 18
11-06-10 04:07 PM - Post#1249425    

Behn Wilson fought Probert in his 3rd last career fight and still completely neutralized Probert after ditching Yzerman into the boards. If there was a winner in that fight it was certainly Wilson, who lost 4 times in his entire career. Probert lost more than 30 NHL fights and was beaten repeatedly by Crowder, McKenzie, Brashear, knocked on his ass by the likes of Dave Morrisette (?) and Chris Tamer (?). Probert was no Behn Wilson
justice010
prospect
Posts 18
11-06-10 04:29 PM - Post#1249431    

1. Behn Wilson
2. Larry Playfair
3. Clark Gillies
4. Dave Brown
5. Willi Plett
6. Jim McKenzie
7. Donald Brashear
8. Bob Probert
9. Stan Jonathan
10. Craig Berube

11. Dave Richter
12. Sandy McCarthy
13. Tony Twist
14. Marty McSorley
15. Bob Nystrom
16. Terry O'Reilly
17. Paul Holmgren
18. George Laraque
19. Mel Bridgman
20. Terry Ruskowski


My list is biased towards pre - 1995 because to be honest NHL hockey since that time puts me to sleep, so I don't have an informed opinion on more modern-day guys.

NHL Heavyweights should be ranked by body of work; not 1 or 2 big wins. The top 3 guys on my list all fought the best of their time and very seldom lost, and all were recognized as heavyweight champ at one time. I believe Wilson is #1 because he beat the likes of Clark Gillies, Barry Beck, McSorley, Clark, Fraser, Plett, etc., etc. He was never soundly beaten and still fought and beat the best right to the end of his career.

Anyone putting the likes of Semenko, Nilan, Domi, or Tiger Williams on your list should give your head a shake. It's not important to you that the guys actually win more fights than they lose???
srehm1
veteran
Posts 468
srehm1
11-06-10 09:10 PM - Post#1249558    

No Fotiu? That is blasphemy on this site.
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

cashman rulz
legend
Posts 12791
cashman rulz
11-06-10 09:37 PM - Post#1249567    

  • justice010 Said:
1. Behn Wilson
2. Larry Playfair
3. Clark Gillies
4. Dave Brown
5. Willi Plett
6. Jim McKenzie
7. Donald Brashear
8. Bob Probert
9. Stan Jonathan
10. Craig Berube

11. Dave Richter
12. Sandy McCarthy
13. Tony Twist
14. Marty McSorley
15. Bob Nystrom
16. Terry O'Reilly
17. Paul Holmgren
18. George Laraque
19. Mel Bridgman
20. Terry Ruskowski


My list is biased towards pre - 1995 because to be honest NHL hockey since that time puts me to sleep, so I don't have an informed opinion on more modern-day guys.

NHL Heavyweights should be ranked by body of work; not 1 or 2 big wins. The top 3 guys on my list all fought the best of their time and very seldom lost, and all were recognized as heavyweight champ at one time. I believe Wilson is #1 because he beat the likes of Clark Gillies, Barry Beck, McSorley, Clark, Fraser, Plett, etc., etc. He was never soundly beaten and still fought and beat the best right to the end of his career.

Anyone putting the likes of Semenko, Nilan, Domi, or Tiger Williams on your list should give your head a shake. It's not important to you that the guys actually win more fights than they lose???


Where is Weinsenk on your list?? He beat Wilson!

irish_66
hall of famer
Posts 9180
irish_66
11-06-10 10:06 PM - Post#1249579    

jim mckenzie top ten?????????????

you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
Gretzky to Hextall after Hexy stoned him on a breakaway in Hexy's first game:"Who the hell are you?"
Hextall's response:"Who the hell are you?"

justice010
prospect
Posts 18
11-06-10 10:34 PM - Post#1249590    

Brad Park also beat Larry Playfair; is he on your list anywhere?? He's not on mine and neither is Wensink

Body of work bud, body of work. Wilson's losses in his career are to Wensink and Fotiu (as a 20 yr old), Willi Plett and Kevin McClelland. Of those 4 only Willi Plett has a long list of victories over elite heavyweights.

You can put Wensink in the same class as Fotiu and McClelland; guys who looked great at times, but their resumes are just not long or good enough.
justice010
prospect
Posts 18
11-06-10 10:45 PM - Post#1249594    

Pass along your list Irish; I'm always open to debate. McKenzie was the best two-fisted fighter I saw and he has some eye-dropping wins on his resume.

Just please don't tell me your list contains Nilan, Semenko, or Domi. The top all-time guys should be required to at least win as many as they lose.
Hike
Veteran
Posts 6937
11-07-10 06:24 AM - Post#1249646    

  • justice010 Said:
Body of work bud, body of work. Wilson's losses in his career are to Wensink and Fotiu (as a 20 yr old), Willi Plett and Kevin McClelland. Of those 4 only Willi Plett has a long list of victories over elite heavyweights.



To be fair, in an earlier post, you give Wilson a win over Beck in what was really a shit fight draw, so if you're going to score that as a win for Wilson, you'd have to give Wilson a loss in his fight with Bert Wilson, Paul Mulvey, Harold Snepsts, and maybe even Tony McKegney. I'd probably call them draws, but I also wouldn't give Behn the win over Beck either.

Welcome to the site. It's always good to see another old-schooler join.
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment

justice010
prospect
Posts 18
11-07-10 08:35 AM - Post#1249664    

Thank you sir. My only problem with the McKegney fight is people choose not to see that Wilson slipped on a hockey stick behind him. McKegney did no better than a draw in that one. I will entertain the Harold Snepsts reference though. Snepsts was a MUCH better fighter than I remembered when I look at his old clips today.
Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
11-07-10 01:05 PM - Post#1249718    

  • srehm1 Said:
No Fotiu? That is blasphemy on this site.



We get it. You don't like Fotiu.

srehm1
veteran
Posts 468
srehm1
11-07-10 01:15 PM - Post#1249721    

  • Posux Said:
  • srehm1 Said:
No Fotiu? That is blasphemy on this site.



We get it. You don't like Fotiu.




No, I actually do like Fotiu. I just don't rank him as highly as some.
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
11-07-10 01:25 PM - Post#1249724    

You like him, yet you're mocking the site's feelings toward the guy. Ok.

srehm1
veteran
Posts 468
srehm1
11-07-10 01:28 PM - Post#1249725    

  • Posux Said:
You like him, yet you're mocking the site's feelings toward the guy. Ok.



Well it was ok for people to call me out for not having Fotiu in my top-20. I was doing the same and it was in jest. Relax.
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

Drunk_24-7
legend
Posts 17082
Drunk_24-7
11-08-10 12:58 AM - Post#1249893    

  • justice010 Said:
1. Behn Wilson
2. Larry Playfair
3. Clark Gillies
4. Dave Brown
5. Willi Plett
6. Jim McKenzie
7. Donald Brashear
8. Bob Probert
9. Stan Jonathan
10. Craig Berube

11. Dave Richter
12. Sandy McCarthy
13. Tony Twist
14. Marty McSorley
15. Bob Nystrom
16. Terry O'Reilly
17. Paul Holmgren
18. George Laraque
19. Mel Bridgman
20. Terry Ruskowski


My list is biased towards pre - 1995 because to be honest NHL hockey since that time puts me to sleep, so I don't have an informed opinion on more modern-day guys.

NHL Heavyweights should be ranked by body of work; not 1 or 2 big wins. The top 3 guys on my list all fought the best of their time and very seldom lost, and all were recognized as heavyweight champ at one time. I believe Wilson is #1 because he beat the likes of Clark Gillies, Barry Beck, McSorley, Clark, Fraser, Plett, etc., etc. He was never soundly beaten and still fought and beat the best right to the end of his career.

Anyone putting the likes of Semenko, Nilan, Domi, or Tiger Williams on your list should give your head a shake. It's not important to you that the guys actually win more fights than they lose???



I disagree with a whole lot of things on your list, but all lists are subject to opinion and different ranking systems, sometimes favorites might play apart as well when it comes down to guys who are close in most areas so the ranker's personal favorite gets the nod. There's all kinds of factors that would go into it, so I'm not going to really jump all over specific placements other than Probie not being at the top with Dave Brown in second place.

What I don't understand is your angle that the rankings should be based on one's "body of work" when it seems as though you completely ignore most of these guys "body of work" as an overall idea of how awesome they are and instead you seem to dwell on a few key losses, something that comes with the territory of having a superior overall body of work than your peers. Those who slip by with little to no losses usually either aren't fighting enough or aren't fighting the same type of competition as those who happen to have a few blemishes on an ultra impressive card.

To me losses mean absolutely nothing so long as you avenge them. Probert and Brown lost some fights but they avenged basically every loss they ever suffered so when you do that, the loss becomes pretty much irrelevant in my opinion. They each had winning percentages of around 70-75% and held on to those type of numbers with a far greater volume than most of the guys who list ahead of them...meaning their "body of work" was far more extensive and complete. Probert had about 300 fights, Brown had about 250, each winning probably at least 65% percent of their fights decisively and with draws added onto that and factored in you could bump the percentage of fights they did very well in to about 80%. That means they kept their losses to about 20%. You even say Probert lost at least 30 fights, as if that's a bad thing...If you fight 300 and times and you lose 30, that mean's you're winning 90% of your fights.

To put up the kind of number Brown and Probert put up in around 250 and 300 fights respectively against top competition during the height of the enforcer's arms race, I don't think you can make a legitimate argument that anyone has put together a more impressive body of work than those two guys.

In Contrast, Wilson, Playfair and Gillies only had about 100 fights each.

Wilson lost to Wensink, Fotiu, Plett, Bert Wilson, Mulvey, & Mclelland.

Larry lost to Nilan, Secord, Jimmy Mann, Brian MacLellan, Park, and Steve Rooney.

Gillies lost to Wilson(which I'm assuming is why you ranked Wilson first and created room for Playfair to sneak into second ahead of Gillies) He also lost to O'Rielly, Paradise, Schultz and Linden Byers.

Those losses show that just like Probert and Brown, these guys weren't unbeatable, they were the best of the best in the time that they played and in that era it ended up that they fought a fair bit less and therefore lost a fair bit less. They also won a fair bit less too. Probert and Brown have won more fights than Wilson, Playfair or Gillies have been in, and he's been in nearly as many as the three of them combined. Of course they're going to have more losses and slip up now and again. It's the way they take the initative to avenge those losses that puts them head and shoulders above the rest.

While Wilson, Playfair and Gillies didn't have as many "bad" losses, I would assume thanks in large part to significantly fewer fights, none of them delt with their bad losses as effectively as Probert or Brown. Wilson never forced a rematch on McLelland and tuned him up to prove to him that he was a far superior fighter and erase that blemish in what would have to be considered a "bad loss" nor did he look for anymore of Fotiu or Wensink, a couple of real solid fighters and fellow all timers that there's no shame in losing to. The thing is, when Probert or Brown lost those types of fights, there would be a rematch and Probert or Brown would win it.

Playfair got got the better of his overall series with Nilan and Secord but he lost to those guys at one time and he avenged his loss to Jimmy Mann. However he also lost to the likes of MacLellan and Rooney, fights which gotta be considered "bad" losses for a heavyweight champ ranked fighter to take. Yet there was never a Playfair-Rooney II, where Larry laid the law down and therefore his "body of work" is not as complete as a Bob Probert or a Dave Brown.

Same thing with Gillies. While he was able to somewhat avenge the Wilson loss by getting a draw on the next go around and he was able to payback Schultz in the rematch. He also won his series with Terry O. He never went after Paradise again, and when he tried to avenge his loss to Byers late in his career, he came up empty on a pair of attempts.

Gillies fought Probert and it was a draw. Wilson also fought Probert to a draw and neither one of them ever tangled with Brown so there's nothing to go one there.

You mention Wilson, Playfair and Gillies considered the "champ" at one point and that's true. These guys are all top 10 all timers and all have a real good case for the top the 5 but their "body of work" simply doesn't measure up to Probert or Brown who both also carried the title of the champ. In Probert's case he basically took it from Brown and went on to hold that title probably longer than anyone else in probably hockey's toughest era as far as enforcers go. The number of "title fights" and title defenses they had is just off the charts.

Wilson was more or less locked in as the "champ" by most people when he hammered Gillies. Gillies was considered the champ when he dummied Schultz in the playoffs to finish his rookie campign and he sort of held that rep until Wilson took it from him with the beating he put in him in their first fight.

Playfair pretty much became the champ on volume and dominantion in his victories as the enforcers came to be more or less guys dedicated to fighting first without the need to be able to play the game very well. Guys like Gillies, Wilson, O'Rielley, even Schultz, could all play hockey. Fotiu came along and his sole purpose was to negate the Flyers and protect the Rangers softer players and it seemed to work quite well. Semenko was brought in as insurance for Gretzky, so other teams began to follow suit and most teams had a dedicated enforcer on board. Larry Playfair quickly seemed to be the guy to first rise to the top of that heap and grab the title of League Champ as the enforcers arms race kicked off. He fought quite a bit more than Semenko or Fotiu and while those guys earned their reps in the WHA and were real tough guys without question, Larry was out there night and night out consistantly doing what most people had only heard about Fotiu and Semenko doing through the grapvine. He never fought Fotiu or Wilson but he beat Semenko and as well as pretty much everyone else he faced on route to being recignized as the champ while Wilson was starting to slow his pace and showed some vulnerability in losing to Kevin McClelland.

By 85 though, Dave Brown had arrived on the scene and started tearing shit up down in Philly. Brian MacLellan stood up to Playfair and beat him in the Buffalo vs. LA brawl and Steve Freakin' Rooney dropped him the following season, while Brown was annihilating everyone in his path. I thought Brown was the stand alone champ from 84-87 before Probert went from a solid 86-87 campign to where he really broke out in 87-88 by putting Semenko out to pasture in their rematch, hammering another former champ in Glen Cochrane, dropping Curran and Stanley, pounding Coxe in the fight of the year, soundly beating other contenders like McSorely, Clark, and Baumgartner, making a statement in the way he would defend his teammates when he hovered over the pile to get at Maguire and drawing with both Wilson and Brown. Brown and Wilson both went undefeated that season
but Wilson retired after it narrowing the field to two.

Probert and Brown were sort of Co Champions until Probie ended the debate by beating Brown decisively in their January 91 fight and then dropped Crowder in their rematch to silence that debate as well. After the 90-91 season it was Probie as the stand alone champ right thru to till he finished up with Detroit at the end of 94.

8 Years as NHL champ is a long friggin' time and Probie remained a force throughout the remainder of his career. He was arguably the season champ once again with a very impressive turn of the century season in 99-00 where he was definatly Top 5 once again after a bit of a drop off and he was easily top ten for every season of his career.

You rank Probert 8th because he lost over 30 fights...out of nearly 300? Far more important is the stat on how many former champs or contenders did you beat? Guys who were former, were at the time or would go on to become at least single season champs or top 3 in at least a full season who fell victim to Probert include:

Semenko, Cochrane, Brown, Crowder, MacSorely, Twist, Grimson, Domi, Brashear, Cairns, Laraque and Belak. A Dozen.

Wilson beat Gillies, Semenko and Tiger. Three.
(Tiger probably wouldn't even qualify either but his popularity bumped his rep similar to the way Domi was looked at as the champ the year he beat Probert when he arguably wasn't even top 3 when you view his season as a whole.)

Playfair beat Semenko, Wensink and Tiger. Three.

Gillies beat Schultz, Tiger and McSorely.
(Jonathan and O'Rilley were tough as nails but never considered to be the champ or even top 3 in a single season I don't think, top 5 probably but not top 3. Plett would be right on the bubble, but it's kind of irrelevant as he'd be on Probert's card as well as Wilson, Playfair and Gillies)

What about givin' the kids a chance? Passing on the tourch so to speak. Gillies and Wilson both fought and Beat McSorely, while Marty had a great war with Playfair. Wilson and Gillies both gave Probie a shot and they couldn't beat him both earning respective draws against Probert. That's really pretty much it. Playfair and Gillies gave Byers a shot and Linden had a real nice draw with Playfair and went 1-0-2 against Gillies. Wilson gave Wendel Clark a shot and went 1-0-1 against him. Probert on the other hand gave EVERYONE a shot and turned away guys hyped to be the next him such as Scott Parker, Matt Johnson, Alex Stojanov to minor league legends getting their brief chance at the show like Bonvie, Anglestead, Mario Roberge, Pat Cote, Lakovic, you name 'em, Probie's probably fought em and beaten em. Sure he loses a few, there's the Morrisstte TKO he suffered and couldn't avenge because Moose didn't stay in the league long enough. The Belanger beatdown he suffered, which he did avenge. Those are the things that can happen when you fight everyone into the twilight of your career. Those are the things that didn't happen to Wilson, Playfair or Gillies because they never put up numbers like Probert in terms of majors, especially as their careers winded down.

Then beyond the first 3, you have Brown at 4th. Really the only thing that seperates Brown and Probert is that Probert had about an extra 50 fights and he BEAT Brown in their rematch with the NHL Heavyweight Title showdown fight to determine the Undisputed Champ. Probert won the fight and there was never another one between those two to follow, so Probert in my opinion should has to rank ahead of Brown.

Then you go way off the board and have Plett & McKenzie along with Brashear ahead of Probert as well.

Plett was 0-1-1 against Probert and while he was always a solid top 10 guy who could hang with and upset anyone, he wasn't the most exciting fighter in the world. He has nearly 100 less fights than Probie overall and he's lost the head to head matchup with him. He doesn't have many losses because so many of his fights were boring draws where a wrestling match prevented anything exciting or significant from happening. He did however lose to guys like Perry Anderson and Chris Kotsopoulos which is no worse than losing to Chris Tamer or Dave Morrissette in my opinion. I think the quality of your fights should account for something in terms of all time rankings and Willi doesn't really do anything for his cause in that department.

McKenzie's an interesting pick. Here's a guy who's highly underrated and has a tremendous "body of work" including a 2-0 record against Probert. Neither fight was all that great or decisive but McKenzie also has extremely impressive wins over former champs Tony Twist, Sandy McCarthy, Donald Brasher and Wade Belak. Brashear and McCarthy won their series with him while he got the better of his series with Probert, Twist and Belak. McKenzie's got 200 plus fights and I think it's fair to say he's highly under-rated but to stick him in at number 6 all time, ahead of Bob freakin' Probert is to grossly over-rate him in my opinion. Especially when your biggest knock on Probie is that he had some bad losses. McKenzie's lost to top heavyweights like Dave Brown and Tie Domi which there's certianly no shame in, but he's also been beaten by guys like Darin Kimble, Dennis Bonvie, Francis Lessard Brad Brown, Chris McAllister, Jesse Boulerice, Kristoff Oliwa and Greg Smyth. I would think losses to the likes of Greg Smyth and a slew of guys who spent the bulk of their career in the minors would be worse for the all time ranking than Probert's few losses, almost all of which were avenged.

You put Brashear ahead of Probert as well and while the Donald's winning percentage might be higher, as in the case of Plett, you gotta factor in the quality of the fight. Brashear took no chances early in his career and gained a pile of shit fight edges which really in my opinion, aren't worth shit. He's only 4-4 against Probert for his career and 7 out of those 8 fights happened when Probert was past his prime. The Post-prime Probie didn't shy away from Brashear when Donald was in his prime and infact beat him 3 times. A pre-prime Brashear on the other hand ran from a Prime Probert. Brashear was damn near impossible to beat in his prime because of his style but it's not like the guy never lost. In Montreal he lost to guys like Louie DeBrusk, Dody Wood and Jamie Huscroft. In Vancouver he lost to guys like Dan Kordic, Mick Vukota and Adam Foote. In Philly it was Dingman and Dougie Doull, in Washington it was Peters and Parros and in New York it was Thornton and Carkner all "upsetting" Brashear and dealing him the type of losses that you hold against Probert. The biggest difference is that in everyone of Probie's fights, he was willing to take the chance at losing in order to win and win big.

Outside of running from McCarthy in a highly entertaining loss, and picking up a real dominant victory over Sandy Mac once he went over the hill, I don't think I saw Brashear in a 5 star fight of the year candidate type battle until his first war with Godard 05-06 which ended up a draw. 12 Fuckin' years into his career that was before he decided to really start opening up and actually fighting other legit heavyweights.

He had a real good one with Laraque that he scored a nice comeback win on and he had a pretty good one with Cairns that he lost. He bailed on the Domi playoff fight the moment he got in trouble simply giving away the decision in that one. One of the best fights in terms of quality and excitement he was ever involved in was against Belak and he got knocked the fuck out in while he scored some real nice wins in wide open fights with Orr and had a very solid victory over Boogaard even though he bailed out on the rematch. Other than that most of the big heavyweight matchups we looked forward to during Brashear's prime were boring, anti- climactic disappointments. The same cannot be said for Mr. Probert's highly anticipated battles.

Probert had at least one if not two or three or four or five, five star fights a season and usually took not only took home fight of the year awards but was also on the winning end of most of em.

Probert-Coxe I - Fight of the Year 85-86 - Winner Probert.

Probert-Coxe II - Fight of the Year 87-88 - Winner
Probert.

Probert-Semenko II - Revenge is served by Probert in a Highly Anticipated Fight that lived up to and exceeded expectations.

Probert-Brown II - Fight of the Year 90-91 - Winner Probert - Perhaps the most influential fight of all time in terms of it's significance with the Number 1 and 2 guys going at it and just leaving it all on the ice.

Probert-Crowder II - Most hyped up fight in NHL history at the time it happened in 91 and it lived up to the hype. Winner - Probert.

Probert-Gaetz - Fight of the Year 91-92 - Draw

Probert-Domi II - Fight of the Year 92-93 - Winner
Probert in the most hyped hockey fight of all time.

Probert-McSorely 4 - Fight of the Year 93-94 - Winner Probert. I thought their first fight when Marty was with Edmonton, also won by Probie was just as good as this one too.

Probert-Marchment - Fight of the Year 95-96 (According to Don Cherry) Winner Probert.

Probert-Shanahan - Fight of the Year 96-97 (According to Don Cherry) Winner Probert.

Probert-Parker - The Teacher Schools the Student Winner Probert

There's an endless list of phenominal, relevant, awesome Probert fights. Brashear's best fights in terms of quality and entertainment are usually the ones he loses.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that your opinion about Bob Probert is wrong. I will say I completely disagree with it, but it's your opinion and you're entitled. If you think Wilson would beat Probert and therefore should be ranked ahead of him, that's a fair guess. They fought once, it was a draw and Wilson is one of the best fighters of all time without a doubt. He was a great technical fighter and he definatly could have beaten Probert more often than not if they had a series, he may not have though as Probie usually figured everyone out and then took care of business proving himself to be the very best time and time and time again. You obviously think Wilson would win, I think Probert win but we'll never really know because they didn't have a series and the fight they did have was even. There's no evidence to support either one of us other than the one uneventful fight they had that ended in a draw and proved nothing.

Where I will say that I think you're totally wrong however, is when you say your rankings are based on a fighter's complete "body of work".

If that's the case, then the facts as I've attempted to lay them out in this post will show that regardless of a few questionable losses, Bob Probert has a far superior "body of work" than Wilson, Playfair, Gillies and anyone else who's ever dropped a pair of hockey gloves in order to punch somebody in the face.





"To be honest, even though he lost, Hendricks did a better job of enforcing than most heavyweight enforcers do." - Peatycap

Not only is the NHL totally fucked it's fans are out to lunch now as well

justice010
prospect
Posts 18
11-08-10 09:00 AM - Post#1249928    

well, didn't have time to read your entire response because I have a job, but here goes:

I read something about avenging losses; let me know when Probert has another go with Ken Belanger. No one losing a fight THAT badly to a no-name is #1

The top 5 guys on my list also never used cocaine as a stimulant (to anyone's knowledge), nor did they undress during fights to gain an unfair advantage the way Probert, McSorley, and Ray did. Brown did to a much much lesser degree. If the league has to change the rules to alter the way you fight; not because of your ability, but because you're cheating, that's not #1 material
Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
11-08-10 09:10 AM - Post#1249935    

Just the fact you called Ken Belanger a "no name" shows you know absolutely nothing about this hobby.

Sorry to hear you have a job and cant spend more time learning. The rest of us dont work I guess.
Drunk_24-7
legend
Posts 17082
Drunk_24-7
11-08-10 03:46 PM - Post#1250048    

  • justice010 Said:
well, didn't have time to read your entire response because I have a job, but here goes:



Yet you found the time to knock off 18 posts in less than 48 hours...Maybe if you'd take the time to read what other's who have questioned your position are saying and try and understand their points; maybe watch some footage after '95 you'd be doing much better in managing your time as opposed to shooting your mouth off like an ignorant douchebag. Shut your mouth, open your mind and maybe you'll learn somethin', if not from me, perhaps from some of the more concise and to the point posters who you've also been arguing your ludicris position on Probert against.
"To be honest, even though he lost, Hendricks did a better job of enforcing than most heavyweight enforcers do." - Peatycap

Not only is the NHL totally fucked it's fans are out to lunch now as well

Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
11-08-10 03:53 PM - Post#1250050    

He was working a double shift at the Pizza Hut. Its a busy time of year.


Mike
Administrator
Posts 24477
Mike
11-08-10 04:03 PM - Post#1250052    

actually for the record, I have zero issues with someone placing Behn Wilson ahead of Probert all-time. That is not crazy and a lot of good knowledgeable posters have done this. I personally have Wilson top 3 all-time so I recognize how good he was. My issues are the rest of the list. When I see names like Brashear, Willi Plett and Jim McKenzie ahead of Probert I just shake my head. And when Terry O, Ruskowski and Richter make your top 20 but no Domi or Grimson, I really question what you know. Hell, I liked Ruskowski as a fighter, but Derek Boogard already has more big wins and more damage done than Ruskowski did in his entire career. Even Eric Godard has had a better career than Ruskowski, Richter, Holmgren or O'Reilly. Godard is the only guy I can think of that has actually dropped Colton Orr, Derek Boogard and Steve MacIntyre. That is an incredible accomplishment.

Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
11-08-10 04:26 PM - Post#1250057    

  • justice010 Said:
well, didn't have time to read your entire response because I have a job, but here goes:

I read something about avenging losses; let me know when Probert has another go with Ken Belanger. No one losing a fight THAT badly to a no-name is #1

The top 5 guys on my list also never used cocaine as a stimulant (to anyone's knowledge), nor did they undress during fights to gain an unfair advantage the way Probert, McSorley, and Ray did. Brown did to a much much lesser degree. If the league has to change the rules to alter the way you fight; not because of your ability, but because you're cheating, that's not #1 material



You don't have time? How do you have time to post about every fight on youtube then? Some job you have.

Johnny_Upton
Moderator
Posts 29165
Johnny_Upton
11-08-10 04:49 PM - Post#1250062    

  • Mike Said:
actually for the record, I have zero issues with someone placing Behn Wilson ahead of Probert all-time. That is not crazy and a lot of good knowledgeable posters have done this. I personally have Wilson top 3 all-time so I recognize how good he was. My issues are the rest of the list. When I see names like Brashear, Willi Plett and Jim McKenzie ahead of Probert I just shake my head. And when Terry O, Ruskowski and Richter make your top 20 but no Domi or Grimson, I really question what you know. Hell, I liked Ruskowski as a fighter, but Derek Boogard already has more big wins and more damage done than Ruskowski did in his entire career. Even Eric Godard has had a better career than Ruskowski, Richter, Holmgren or O'Reilly. Godard is the only guy I can think of that has actually dropped Colton Orr, Derek Boogard and Steve MacIntyre. That is an incredible accomplishment.



I think you're reaching with the Godard comparison as it relates to Holmgren and maybe Taz. Richter is a good comp and as much as I like Roscoe he's not in the top 20 all time.

No Kocur or McSorley
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JayBone
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Posts 1610
JayBone
11-08-10 05:33 PM - Post#1250069    

Excellent post by Drunk. One of the most well thought out posts i have seen on this site.

Mike
Administrator
Posts 24477
Mike
11-08-10 06:29 PM - Post#1250083    

  • Johnny_Upton Said:
  • Mike Said:
actually for the record, I have zero issues with someone placing Behn Wilson ahead of Probert all-time. That is not crazy and a lot of good knowledgeable posters have done this. I personally have Wilson top 3 all-time so I recognize how good he was. My issues are the rest of the list. When I see names like Brashear, Willi Plett and Jim McKenzie ahead of Probert I just shake my head. And when Terry O, Ruskowski and Richter make your top 20 but no Domi or Grimson, I really question what you know. Hell, I liked Ruskowski as a fighter, but Derek Boogard already has more big wins and more damage done than Ruskowski did in his entire career. Even Eric Godard has had a better career than Ruskowski, Richter, Holmgren or O'Reilly. Godard is the only guy I can think of that has actually dropped Colton Orr, Derek Boogard and Steve MacIntyre. That is an incredible accomplishment.



I think you're reaching with the Godard comparison as it relates to Holmgren and maybe Taz. Richter is a good comp and as much as I like Roscoe he's not in the top 20 all time.

No Kocur or McSorley



He had McSorley in his top 20, but not Kocur (which is crazy). He's in my top 10.

You might be right about me reaching on godard but the guy has as many (if not more) big wins than either Taz or Holmgren.

Mike
Administrator
Posts 24477
Mike
11-08-10 06:40 PM - Post#1250090    

oh, and another guy who gets almost no respect on these lists but if some of Justice's names are legit than throw in Eric Cairns. he was dominant for a stretch and destructive like Boogard. Personally, i think Cairns was a far better fighter than Willie Plett or Terry O'Reilly.

Of course Justice wouldnt know that because he didnt watch hockey past '95 and would only count the times Cairns got decked in his early career before he really came into his prime.

plett
Member
Posts 14663
plett
11-08-10 07:32 PM - Post#1250111    

I don't do lists, but I can't see any way that Plett makes any top five.
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playoffbeard
legend
Posts 10835
playoffbeard
11-08-10 08:11 PM - Post#1250116    

  • Mike Said:


Of course Justice wouldnt know that because he didnt watch hockey past '95 and would only count the times Cairns got decked in his early career before he really came into his prime.



If he didn't watch hockey past 95' how is Brashy so high on his list.

irish_66
hall of famer
Posts 9180
irish_66
11-08-10 08:46 PM - Post#1250125    

why the lack of respect of Terry O?? His two epic battles with Wilson alone often go unnoticed here and imo a no doubt top 20 guy. Unbelievable fight card with impressive wins.
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Hextall's response:"Who the hell are you?"

Posux
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Posts 31924
Posux
11-08-10 08:57 PM - Post#1250128    

Lots of losses on Terry O's card.

Mike
Administrator
Posts 24477
Mike
11-08-10 09:00 PM - Post#1250131    

yeah, a lot of bad ones too. just never been a huge fan. I know he's a legend and all that, but I just dont think he was that great of a fighter. and when you compare to the usual names on the top 20 list and even the monster heavyweights of this era, I dont think he would fared well at all (or measures up).

Bruins29
superstar
Posts 3669
Bruins29
11-08-10 09:05 PM - Post#1250136    

Miller would rate higher IMO.
taz
hall of famer
Posts 9668
taz
11-08-10 09:45 PM - Post#1250149    

Agreed. IMO Miller is the best Bruin fighter they've ever had.
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TGR32
hall of famer
Posts 8663
TGR32
01-28-11 02:19 PM - Post#1279546    

Matt Carkner in the All Time Top 20?
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Kramer
Moderator
Posts 36390
Kramer
01-28-11 02:19 PM - Post#1279547    

has to be at this point
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RIP To The King - Bob Probert 1965-2010

Henry Krinkle
hall of famer
Posts 5640
Henry Krinkle
01-28-11 02:31 PM - Post#1279559    

  • Quote:
My list is biased towards pre - 1995 because to be honest NHL hockey since that time puts me to sleep, so I don't have an informed opinion on more modern-day guys.




96-97 was the best fight season ever

I think you're way out of line talking about Probert that way, and your list more like a favorites list than unbiased alltime ranking
"You wouldn't know beauty if it was waiting for you down in the parking lot to give you Hepatitis. Which it will be."

BGC99
veteran
Posts 393
BGC99
04-09-11 09:54 AM - Post#1303578    

1Bob Probert
2Behn Wilson
3Dave Brown
4Joey Kocur
5tony twist
6Donald Brashear
7Marty McSorley
8George Laraque
9Domi
10Sandy McCarthy
11Clark Gillies
12larry Playfair
13bobby Nystrom
14Jim McKenzie
15Chris Simon
16john Kordic
17Terry O'Reilly
18Stu Grimson
19Winsik
20Craig Berube
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Jake's greatest hit's

srehm1
veteran
Posts 468
srehm1
04-09-11 11:47 AM - Post#1303620    

Manpon is not top-20 all time. Neither is Secord. Unless of course you are a HUGE blackhawks homer.

johnz can you post your top-20 all time? Maybe an updated version. Thanks.
R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

Canucko29
legend
Posts 13525
Canucko29
04-09-11 11:58 AM - Post#1303624    

Secord, Fraser, Manpon in the top 20???? Oh my! The only one there who would crack my top 50 would be Fraser (outside the top 20), and mostly for what he did as a Canuck against Plett. The other 2 belong in the 50-150 range.

BGC99
veteran
Posts 393
BGC99
04-09-11 12:29 PM - Post#1303633    

lol At srehm1, Taz, and Canucko's post's.

I agree,I think Fraser cracks the top 50,but secord and man son.

What do you guys think about my top 20?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spJ8SL5hOy0

Jake's greatest hit's

taz
hall of famer
Posts 9668
taz
04-09-11 12:40 PM - Post#1303635    

Personally, I don't have Twist or McKenzie that high, and I'd have Fotiu and Miller on the list.
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srehm1
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Posts 468
srehm1
04-09-11 01:00 PM - Post#1303639    

There's really no right or wrong with these lists. It's all so subjective and people weigh certain criteria differently.

As for me, I wouldn't rate Twist so high. Domi in the top-10 is a tough one for me as well.

I appreciate the time you took to put together a list, bgc. These lists are so hard to put together. I just stick to giving them 'ranking ranges' or approximate place groupings instead of a definitive number. After the first few spots it's just splitting hairs with a lot of these great fighters.

R.I.P. Bob Probert - the greatest of all time.

Canucko29
legend
Posts 13525
Canucko29
04-09-11 01:38 PM - Post#1303648    

BGC, the way I rate it is based on an overall system. I don't rate guys based strictly on how good of a fighter they were or strictly on how good of an enforcer they were. Moreover, I also consider how much time they played on the ice and how useful they were in other functions. It's a combination really.

Ask any coach in any era and they will tell you that guys like Probert and McSorley are your ideal protectors. They could beat you badly in a fight, play on your fourth or your third line (even second while logging huge minutes) and they did their jobs nicely. Neither were huge KO punchers, however.

Brown is probably the only exception on my top 10 list these days when it comes to the "other" factors. He was a terrible hockey player like Twist, but he just seemed to fit on those Flyers and basically did make them a better and tougher team with his fists. I don't believe he quite fit in the 90s version of hockey, where guys who couldn't play were suddenly playing 2-5 minutes per night, but, for his era, he was pretty effective and used quite effectively by Mike Keenan. It was goon dominance. He even scared teams into letting him score 11 or 12 goals one year from my understanding.

I guess when it comes down to it, I have many criticisms of Twist, but if there is one thing that makes my point for me, it is the fact that the Blues let him walk when he was at the peak of his fighting ability. Debate all you want as to the reasons why they let him walk (e.g. the pussification of the NHL, bad contract negotiations etc...). Great enforcers aren't just let go at their peak unless a team doens't believe they add a substantial enough value. McSorley, despite deteriorating skills in the final years of his career (as well as Probert) played well into the dead puck era of hockey and were considered serviceable players. Heck, even a brutal player like Peter Worrell got some respect before the lockout and he was just as bad a player as Twist and Brown. Rating Twist that high means you only are focussing on the hockey fight tapes.

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but rating enforcer's abilities based strictly on wins-losses, fight cards etc... is outdated and makes us seem like we don't care about the overall game of hockey and the true purpose of the enforcer role.

To me, it's:

(a) Can you fight?
(b) Can you enforce?
(c) Can you play a meaningful role in a game (i.e. more than a few meaningless 1st period shifts which will likely only lead to a scripted fight)?

I also am not a big KO guy. Sure, it may make you more feared, but do you really have to KO someone to get your point across? If that's the case, then the point must not be made that often, as KO's are rare to begin with.

I don't believe you need to be able to KO somebody to be the champ. A beating is a beating. Whether you get KO'd or just get your ass kicked, you are likely not going to repeat the same action regardless. KO's simply look good on our fight tapes.

I'm definitely in the minority on the last paragraph.

Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
04-09-11 02:54 PM - Post#1303676    

My NEW 2011 Top 20:

1) PRobert (CHI ONLY)
2) Manpon
3) Secord
4) Vandenbussche
5) John Aitken
6) Fraser(CHI ONLY)
7) Russel (fear factor)
8) Nylund
9) Wilson(CHI only)
10) Grimson
11) McRae(CHI ONLY)
12) Tony Horacek (CHI ONLY)
13) Roenick
14) Dirk Graham
15) Larmer
16) Peluso
17) Jonathan Toews
18) Vand Dorp
19) Brad Brown
20) Magnuson

Baldridge
legend
Posts 11959
Baldridge
04-09-11 03:05 PM - Post#1303680    

  • Bridgman Said:
My NEW 2011 Top 20:

1) PRobert (CHI ONLY)
2) Manpon
3) Secord
4) Vandenbussche
5) John Aitken
6) Fraser(CHI ONLY)
7) Russel (fear factor)
8) Nylund
9) Wilson(CHI only)
10) Grimson
11) McRae(CHI ONLY)
12) Tony Horacek (CHI ONLY)
13) Roenick
14) Dirk Graham
15) Larmer
16) Peluso
17) Jonathan Toews
18) Vand Dorp
19) Brad Brown
20) Magnuson



You have it wrong.......Vandy was the toughest "middleweight" of all-time.......Secord was also the greatest Power Foward of All-Time......and of course,whoever is announcing Chicago games are the greatest announcers of all-time......

Needless to say,that guy who sings the National Anthem at Blackhawk games is the greatest of all-time......(He is actually really good).....
"I can't prove any of it"-NYRfan

BGC99
veteran
Posts 393
BGC99
04-09-11 03:25 PM - Post#1303684    

Taz where would you rank Twist and McKenzie? No doubt about It I would have Jay Miller and Fotiu in my top 30, but there’s no way in hell I would put Nicky in my top ten.

Srehm It’s kind of hard not to put Domi In the top ten because of what he(this is coming from a Buffalo fan too) accomplished. Domi had wars with the best fighter in hockey history and also had battles with a top 30 guy(IMO)in Rob Ray. Domi could also play the game and put up stats from time to time. I guarantee his numbers would have been a lot higher(Probert’s too) If he didn’t fight as much.

Canucko I try to take everything into consideration like If a guy could enforce the game, take a regular shift and thats why guys like Wilson and Gillies get a high rank form me.The problem is They’re are players who's only purpose(Twist) is to fight. Throwing in all these factors and putting a list together is very hard to do.

Look at a guy like Fotiu. Didn't he part ways with the Rangers at the peak of his fighting career after beating a rookie Behn Wilson, then he was off to Hartford. Why did the Rangers just give up on him? He gave the blue shirts tons of room on the ice so If were talking about enforcing Fotiu did his job.After the Rangers parted ways with him they Acquired Fotiu back in a couple of years. If were just going on enforcing the game Fotiu makes a top five list,but I'm just one of those guys who looks at winning percentages, who fought who, and who did IT the best. If you look at Fotiu's fight card Its weak. Again, he did a great enforcing job, but who did he actually fight. A rookie Behn Wilson, a rookie Tim Hunter and a rookie Craig Cox.Wolfman Jack also gave Fotiu problems and Bobby Nystrom looked like he was getting the best of Nicky in the newsclip. Joe Paterson also played the drums on Nicky's skull and got the win.

I honestly cant believe guys like O'Reilly Gillies, and Playfair were scared of Nicky, when players like Paul Baxter and Torrie Robertson had no problems dropping the gloves.So I put Fotiu in my top 30, but never top 10 or 20.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spJ8SL5hOy0

Jake's greatest hit's

Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
04-09-11 05:13 PM - Post#1303708    

BCR, good list-all joking aside, I'd put guys in and out. Nicky is #1 all time for me. Bridgman #3, I don't have Jimmy Mac or Twist in my top 20. I add Holmgren in my top 10 at #10.

A few ins and outs, but I think overall you've compiled a good list.

Don't take offense, but I don't think you understand the impact Fotiu had for the NYR. He was left unprotected in the expansion draft.

BGC99
veteran
Posts 393
BGC99
04-09-11 06:00 PM - Post#1303716    

  • Bridgman Said:
BCR, good list-all joking aside, I'd put guys in and out. Nicky is #1 all time for me. Bridgman #3, I don't have Jimmy Mac or Twist in my top 20. I add Holmgren in my top 10 at #10.

A few ins and outs, but I think overall you've compiled a good list.

Don't take offense, but I don't think you understand the impact Fotiu had for the NYR. He was left unprotected in the expansion draft.



BCR, were you calling me a library Network or a debt collection agency?

Fotiu #1 sounds about right. lets hear It for New York.These streets will make you feel brand new!

Bridgman at #3 sounds about right too.

Lets move Probert down to 19, that sham artist won't get away without(drugs and Alcohol) the truth being told. how he won his fights.

News just in: Behn Wilson moves down to spot 49 in a top 50 list.

Dave Brown, don't ask. That punch from Rob Ray was too much,Hell I'm putting Ray at number 2 and switching Dave Brown to the rank of 29.

More news to come.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spJ8SL5hOy0

Jake's greatest hit's

taz
hall of famer
Posts 9668
taz
04-09-11 07:50 PM - Post#1303763    

Without the roids, Twist IMO was an average HW and the roids were so overwhelmingly a part of of success (although I did not find his career all that impressive) that I can't put him in my top 20. Top 40 for me. McKenzie was a really, really good fighter but he's more of a Top 40 guy for me as well. Too inconsistent and not aggressive enough in too many of his fights.
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Canucko29
legend
Posts 13525
Canucko29
04-09-11 07:58 PM - Post#1303769    

  • taz Said:
Without the roids, Twist IMO was an average HW and the roids were so overwhelmingly a part of of success (although I did not find his career all that impressive) that I can't put him in my top 20. Top 40 for me. McKenzie was a really, really good fighter but he's more of a Top 40 guy for me as well. Too inconsistent and not aggressive enough in too many of his fights.



McKenzie was frustrating as hell. He might be the best non-mean spirited heavyweight enforcer of all-time (between him and big George). The guy was a beast when he got angry but, for the most part, was a little too nice. He also handled Twist in Quebec with ease.

McKenzie was a guy who couldn't really play the game and couldn't really enforce, but was a great fighter. I'd put him in the lower top 40.

He also apparently had a great fight with Odjick in the '95 pre-season that nobody has footage of. Apparently, it was only on radio. Don't know any more than that.

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
04-09-11 08:20 PM - Post#1303780    

For me, McKenzie is top 15. He was a great fighter, & had some great fights vs McCarthy, Twist & Brashear just to name a few. Sure, he was a gentle giant, but when the gloves came off, he was a tough guy to beat.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
04-10-11 06:47 AM - Post#1303887    

  • taz Said:
Without the roids, Twist IMO was an average HW and the roids were so overwhelmingly a part of of success (although I did not find his career all that impressive) that I can't put him in my top 20. Top 40 for me. McKenzie was a really, really good fighter but he's more of a Top 40 guy for me as well. Too inconsistent and not aggressive enough in too many of his fights.


I echo the above

BGC99
veteran
Posts 393
BGC99
04-10-11 02:34 PM - Post#1304025    

  • Badduke14 Said:
For me, McKenzie is top 15. He was a great fighter, & had some great fights vs McCarthy, Twist & Brashear just to name a few. Sure, he was a gentle giant, but when the gloves came off, he was a tough guy to beat.



Agree Mckenzie is definitely top 15 for me too.

"he was a gentle giant"

Not when he smashed Darryl Sydor's face into the ice and beat the snot out of him or the Time he Continued to beat up on Domi when he turtled.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spJ8SL5hOy0

Jake's greatest hit's

BGC99
veteran
Posts 393
BGC99
04-10-11 02:36 PM - Post#1304027    

Badduke14 What do you think about Twist being ranked in the top twenty?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spJ8SL5hOy0

Jake's greatest hit's

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
04-10-11 03:33 PM - Post#1304060    

I don't have Twist in my top 20 because he was too one dimentional & I wasn't overly impressed with many of his wins. Too many times his punches didn't land & I thought he got dropped too many times for a legit guy. I'd take a prime McCarthy over Twist.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

BGC99
veteran
Posts 393
BGC99
04-10-11 04:17 PM - Post#1304068    

Good opinions on Twist guy's, thanks. I'm starting to think Twist Shouldn’t be in my top ten or even top 20 for that matter. IMO I still think he gets a spot under thirty though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spJ8SL5hOy0

Jake's greatest hit's

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
04-10-11 04:22 PM - Post#1304069    

Yeah, top 30 but I think there are better guys than him.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
04-11-11 07:36 AM - Post#1304246    

  • BGC99 Said:
BCR, were you calling me a library Network or a debt collection agency?






That's pretty funny-sorry

juha82
legend
Posts 10249
07-10-11 11:01 AM - Post#1330080    

1.Probert(many big wins)
2.Brashear(his serie with Probert was even, dominated McSorley)
3.Brown
4.Wilson
5.Kocur
6.Twist(underrated here, he did win Probert3x and McKenzie3x as well, pounded clearly Grimson etch, got beated by Kocur in his rookie season but crappy fight and narrow loss as those Kocurs body shots doesnt make a big damage, destroyed Ray who was at that time in his prime, beated decisively Ewen and won clearly Byers, draws with Berube and McCarthy and Worrell, won Odjick2x, he scored a victory over Nilan etch)
7.McSorley
8.McCarthy
9.Laraque
10.C.Gillies
11.L.Playfair
12.MCKenzie
13.Nystrom
14.Berube
15.Domi
16.Grimson
17.Simon
18.Worrell(underrated, beated Probert2x, handled well Domi and Ray, draws with McCarthy and Belak)
19.Belak(KO'd Brashear and did well with him in their serie, also Belak did well against Laraque and Probert)
20.Hunter
21.Cairns
22.jonathan
23.Fotiu(lesser fights but good win% either)
24.Laus
25.Rambo Kordic
26.Baumgartner
27.Langdon(a lot of impressive shows actually)
28.Odjick
29.O'Reilly
30.Boogaard
31.Clark(not best card, lost his series to Probert and McSorley)
32.Nilan
33.Miller
34.Ray
35.Semenko(very overrated)
36.D.Kordic(impressed me with his fights against Brashear2x, Kocur, Simon, Langdon3-4x, Vial, Grimson2x and McSorley)
37.McGrattan(has done well against Brash and Laraque for example and impressive fighter actually, very talented)
38.Cochrane
39.Byers
40.Fraser
41.Richter
42.Wensink
43.Schultz
44.Bridgman
45.Plett
46.Holmgren
47.Johnson
48.Ewen
49.Crowder(short career but great results)
50.Parker
51.Orr
52.Godard
53.Gaetz
54.Tocchet
55.Huard
56.Vial
57Belanger
58.McKay.
59.Beck
60.Odelein
61.Nylund
62.Peters(won Brashear, Cairns, Domi and he wins his serie against McGrattan)
63.McGill
64.Wells
65.Severyn
66.Holt
67.Snepts
68.T.Carkner
69.Shelley
70.Paterson
71.E.Lindros(did well with Grimson, Odelein, Simon2x and McSorley etch)
72.McIlhargey
73.Kyte
74.B.McRae
75.R.Simpson
76.Vukota
77.DAneuko
78.Donnelly
79.Poeschek
80.Churla
81.Shawn Thornton
82.Peat
83.Marchment
84.B.May
85.McCarty
86.Scott Thornton
87.Corson
88.Shahanan
89.Low
90.Coxe
91.Boulton
92.Neil
93.Peluso
94.Debrusk
95.A.May
96.Curran
97.Neely
98.T.Simpson
99.Kimble
100.Chase
Huard28
Moderator
Posts 32308
Huard28
07-10-11 11:37 PM - Post#1330244    

Corson at 87 JUHA? That sticks out to me. I would rank him 287 I think.

"I never participate in the game anymore. It doesn't work. I am too bad. I only fight". - Link Gaetz

juha82
legend
Posts 10249
07-11-11 08:34 AM - Post#1330264    

Well Corson was tough, good fighter.
He did well with guys like Purinton, Domi(TKO'ing Domi!!), Quintal, T.Simpson,Neely, Tocchet(got edged by Tocchet but nice show either), B.May and he got edged only by Berube when Berube was in his prime and he got edged only by Byers.
He challenged Kocur few times, and i think he did it well against him, not get beated badly from what i remember.

johnz
legend
Posts 13792
johnz
07-11-11 09:59 AM - Post#1330273    

I'll give Juha credit...it takes alot of onions to rank Corson that high.
"Pitching is really just an internal struggle between pitcher and his stuff. If my curve ball is breaking and I'm throwing it where I want, the batter is irrelevant." - Steve Stone

Dupre2003
hall of famer
Posts 5285
Dupre2003
07-11-11 10:03 AM - Post#1330275    

Corson was an under-rated fighter, the guy battled the best and hung in there. Looking at how valuable he was to his teams, his card is very good.

Not sure why the hate for the guy? I was a fan of his - One of the best power forwards to play the game.

Canucko29
legend
Posts 13525
Canucko29
07-11-11 12:14 PM - Post#1330289    

  • Dupre2003 Said:
Corson was an under-rated fighter, the guy battled the best and hung in there. Looking at how valuable he was to his teams, his card is very good.

Not sure why the hate for the guy? I was a fan of his - One of the best power forwards to play the game.



I'm not sure if it was the poster Corson27 or the old poster hoax, but they posted similar arguments. I believe the best argument on Corson's behalf was that his card is actually not that bad compared to Neely's and probably a league lower than Tocchet's or Clark's (who were all way better players) though still not terribly off. I guess it depends on whether you consider Corson an underachieving 1st liner or an overachieving third liner. I believe the safe bet is that he was a serviceable 2nd liner in the mould of a Ryan Malone (skill-wise).

But there is a problem with comparing today's game to yesterday's game and vice versa. It blurs the context both ways. If you compare Bieksa to a normal top 3 d-man in the 80s, he appears to be even more of a chickenshit than he really is. Vice-versa, if you compare Corson to a modern new NHL powerforward, he looks like a total all-out warrior.

In reality, Corson was never better than a second line forward in an NHL except may for a brief spell in Montreal where he was a bona fide All-Star. Not to mention, this is the old NHL where good players would still fight enforcers on occasion. The most impressive names on Corson's card that I can recall were Domi and Cairns. And they forced the issue with him in every fight, especially in the Cairns fight (great series). Corson was also known to be very tough with guys he could handle, though not so tough when guys like Probert and McSorley were on the ice.

While I admire Corson's skills as a player and a fighter, my two biggest issues with him washis (a) lack of accountability after the Bob Mason suckerpunch and (b) the fact that e liked to beat up Dana Murzyn (the worst fighter on the Canucks) when he played for the Oilers, yet he never even went near guys like Odjick, Hunter or Antoski.

I guess he's another guy you would love to have on your team and hate when on the opposing team. If you ask even a detractor like me, he'd be a welcomed addition to this pathetic new NHL.

steeles21
Moderator
Posts 19344
steeles21
07-11-11 12:19 PM - Post#1330291    

Juha, nice list. What does your top 500 look like?

Dupre2003
hall of famer
Posts 5285
Dupre2003
07-11-11 02:57 PM - Post#1330312    

Canucko - He has more impressive names that Domi and Cairns, he did fight Domi 3x btw.. others included: Kocur (3x), Tocchet (3x), Byers (2x) Tinordi (2x), Curt Fraser, May, Churla, Matt Johnson, Peters, Ciccone, Donnelly - to name a few.

The guy had over 100 fights in the NHL, he came up as a tough young kid with Montreal, who wasn't afraid to throw the body or knuckles..

Canucko29
legend
Posts 13525
Canucko29
07-11-11 03:55 PM - Post#1330330    

Are you talking about those Kocur fights where he basically just held on while Kocur tried to unload on his face?

We've been through this before numerous times, but here is his full fight card:

1986-1987 Regular Season

Joey Kocur 2x
Randy Cunneyworth
Mike Hough
Cam Neely
Paul MacDermid
Torrie Robertson
Nevin Markwart
Daryl Stanley
Curt Fraser
Scot Kleinendorst
Dan Frawley
Don Nachbaur
Lindsay Carson
Pat Price 2x
Jim Hofford
John Barrett

1986-1987 Postseason

Rick Tocchet
Nevin Markwart

1987-1988 Regular Season

Scott Mellanby
Mark Tinordi
Jeff Beukeboom
Alan May
Gord Donnelly
Greg Smyth
Randy Moller 2x
Brian Glynn
Lyndon Byers 2x
Mario Marois
Allen Pedersen
John Blum

1988-1989 Regular Season

Stephane Quintal
Ken Daneyko
Steve Leach
Joey Kocur
Grant Jennings
John Druce
Randy Moller 2x
Mike Hartman
Gino Cavallini
Keith Brown
Dan Vincelette
Jim Peplinski
Jim Pavese

1988-1989 Postseason

Grant Jennings

1989-1990 Regular Season
Full Season Details

Kris King
Craig Berube
Gary Roberts
Uwe Krupp
Bob Sweeney
Grant Jennings
Dave Barr
Jay Caufield

1990-1991 Regular Season

Luke Richardson
Stephane Quintal
Joel Otto
Bob Sweeney
Garth Butcher
Mike Hartman
Bob McGill
Mark Hunter
Mike Tomlak
Bob Mason

1990-1991 Postseason

Rob Ray

1991-1992 Regular Season

Brad May
Joel Otto
Shane Churla
Bob Sweeney

1991-1992 Postseason

Randy Ladouceur

1992-1993 Regular Season

Bryan Marchment
Rich Pilon
Igor Ulanov
Ronnie Stern
Dana Murzyn
Vladimir Konstantinov
Rob Pearson

1993-1994 Regular Season

Paul Kruse
Jason Smith
Mike Craig

1994-1995 Regular Season

Jassen Cullimore
Jeff Norton
Ronnie Stern 2x

1995-1996 Regular Season

David Karpa
Scott Mellanby
Adam Burt
Joel Otto
Dean Chynoweth

1996-1997 Regular Season

David Karpa
Ed Ward
Ed Jovanovski
Lance Pitlick
Adam Deadmarsh
Rhett Warrener
Ethan Moreau
Mark Tinordi

1997-1998 Regular Season

Darren Van Impe
Tie Domi
Enrico Ciccone
Christian Laflamme

1998-1999 Regular Season

Rick Tocchet
Ed Jovanovski
Tie Domi
Chris Gratton
Chris McAlpine

1999-2000 Regular Season

Kelly Buchberger
Ed Jovanovski
Tie Domi
Owen Nolan
Cameron Mann

2000-2001 Regular Season

Dale Purinton
Brad Lukowich
Shane Hnidy
David Karpa
Colin White
Jamie Pushor
Jason Smith
Todd Simpson
Darren Van Impe
Yves Sarault
Joe Reekie

2001-2002 Preseason

Chris Neil

2001-2002 Regular Season

Chris Neil
Colin White
Clarke Wilm 2x
Stephane Quintal
Matt Johnson

2001-2002 Postseason

Eric Cairns

2002-2003 Preseason

Andrew Peters

2002-2003 Regular Season

Dave Scatchard
Chris Gratton
Andreas Lilja

2003-2004 Regular Season

Josh Green
Rob Davison
Jim Vandermeer

There are several non-fighter/punching bags like Scatchard, Pushor, Karpa, Sweeney, Butcher etc... on his card.

Look at that card between 1990 and 1997. For a guy with Corson's pugilistic skills, that's pathetic. The best fighter he fought in that period was Shane Churla. And guess what he did in that fight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je-WI6aMdSk



Canucko29
legend
Posts 13525
Canucko29
07-11-11 04:00 PM - Post#1330331    

I've actually eased off on my opinions of guys like Corson. I hated him with a passion when he played, mostly for the same reasons Bieksa gives Canucks fans and the organization a bad name. If you ask me, the biggest reason he has those heavyweights on his card is not because he sought them out.

The guy was a massive bully on the ice. But I really do miss those kinds of players today. Yes, you are right. He came into the league the old school way and was probably respected by every teammate he ever played with. But the guy was always more likely to back up his teammates as long as it wasn't a guy who could kick his ass.

Dupre2003
hall of famer
Posts 5285
Dupre2003
07-11-11 06:20 PM - Post#1330362    

Im not sure I get your argument? Corson wasn't a Top 10 heavy, are you looking for 20-30 more goons on there?? - his fight card is very respectable, additionally to the names I've pointed out prior, guys like; Rob Ray, May, Stern, Kruse, McGill, Quintal, Marchment, Mellanby, Tinordi are all well respected fighters - these are the names between 90-97 that you disregard as not being credible fight? and to call guys like Garth Butcher & Jamie Pushor non-fighters is weak, they both fought a ton.

You don't like the guy, I get it..

Huard28
Moderator
Posts 32308
Huard28
07-11-11 07:00 PM - Post#1330366    

Here is a tidbit from my Top 300 rankings:

286. Jamie Pushor
287. Shane Corson
288. David Karpa
"I never participate in the game anymore. It doesn't work. I am too bad. I only fight". - Link Gaetz

Clutch
Moderator
Posts 13121
Clutch
07-11-11 08:05 PM - Post#1330380    

31358. Henrik Sedin
I drank enough whiskey to float a battleship around

Dupre2003
hall of famer
Posts 5285
Dupre2003
07-11-11 08:32 PM - Post#1330382    

31359. Andrew Peters

playoffbeard
legend
Posts 10835
playoffbeard
07-11-11 09:15 PM - Post#1330392    

1. Dave Manpon

Baldridge
legend
Posts 11959
Baldridge
07-11-11 09:39 PM - Post#1330401    

  • Huard28 Said:
Here is a tidbit from my Top 300 rankings:

286. Jamie Pushor
287. Shane Corson
288. David Karpa



Clearly,Corson was a level above the Pushors and Karpas of the world.....

I see Corson in my 120-130 range along with Manpon....
"I can't prove any of it"-NYRfan

Canucko29
legend
Posts 13525
Canucko29
07-11-11 09:39 PM - Post#1330402    

  • Dupre2003 Said:
Im not sure I get your argument? Corson wasn't a Top 10 heavy, are you looking for 20-30 more goons on there?? - his fight card is very respectable, additionally to the names I've pointed out prior, guys like; Rob Ray, May, Stern, Kruse, McGill, Quintal, Marchment, Mellanby, Tinordi are all well respected fighters - these are the names between 90-97 that you disregard as not being credible fight? and to call guys like Garth Butcher & Jamie Pushor non-fighters is weak, they both fought a ton.

You don't like the guy, I get it..



You don't get my argument? You wondered why Corson got so much criticism, and I just told you. Corson never started trouble with guys tougher than himself.

You think Rob Ray was impressive? Did you watch Ray in the early 90s? He was as big a punching bag as Stephen Leach. May was a rookie when they fought and hardly proven. Even Doug Weight jumped Marchment. Hardly impressive considering Marchment was prone to turtling even to non-fighters to draw a penalty. The rest of those guys you listed were hardly better fighters than Corson. I can't believe you even bothered listing Garth Butcher, who was hardly ever a threat since leaving juniors. Maybe people will consider Zach Stortini as a major threat in another 20 years?

You like Corson, I get it.

Dupre2003
hall of famer
Posts 5285
Dupre2003
07-11-11 09:47 PM - Post#1330405    

You called Garth Butcher a 'non-fighter' - if you were around to watch hockey in the 80s you would know otherwise, the guy fought a ton.

Marchment was a good fighter, again you are discrediting guys who could fight.

so your argument is Corson never started with a guy tougher than him? And of those guys listed you essentially say they weren't tough, and again you now refer to Mark Tinordi as not much of a fighter.. Starting to wonder how much hockey you watched in the 80s.. could explain something..

Canucko29
legend
Posts 13525
Canucko29
07-11-11 10:22 PM - Post#1330414    

Read again. I said non-fighters/punching bags. Yes, Butcher was game and would go with anyone, but his fights rarely resulted in big wins for himself. Maybe you can enlighten me on the career of Garth Butcher and just how many fights he won. Please, start a thread. Nobody, including I, said he didn't fight. I think you'll find he clearly falls in the punching bag or at least a "safe" opponent for Corson

Marchment was a good fighter who had a reputation for diving and turtling to draw a penalty. He was not a feared guy when they fought. A good underrated fighter? Yes, that he was. But nothing more.

So, you have maybe 3-4 good fighters in a 7 year period that composed the prime of his fighting career? You call that a respectable card?

Maybe give me some examples of where he started the fight with those heavyweights you listed. Did he go to town on them like he did on Dana Murzyn, pumping hard rights without a fear in the world of getting hit back? I gave you an example (the Churla fight) of where Corson was clearly lacking interest against a good fighter. He didn't even look keen on fighting at the outset. It was typical of Corson in those days, even though he was probably good enough to fight them.

Your little jab at the end means shit to me. I don't need your respect on anything, let alone on the subject of hockey.

Badduke14
superstar
Posts 4786
Badduke14
07-11-11 10:46 PM - Post#1330421    

I always hated Corson. One of my most hated guys alltime because he was a spotpicker. Yes, he did fight some tough guys, but like mentioned before, he never went near Odjick in all those Oiler-Canuck battles, he'd seek out Murzyn. I've never had respect for him, but in today's beyond pussified NHL, I'd take guys like him & Nilan (another most hated) because the NHL lacks villian who would fight in favor for cheapshot artists who won't fight.
Good comparison on Corson then to Bieksa now. Bieksa never seeks out tougher opponents & neither did Corson. Corson goes to town on guys he knows he can beat, just like Bieksa, but the only difference is Corson was more available to be found when a legit heavyweight shows up whereas Bieksa was shitting his pants behind the linesmen.
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)

Canucko29
legend
Posts 13525
Canucko29
07-12-11 12:11 AM - Post#1330460    

I think Bieksa would've gotten jumped a few more times in the late 80s and early 90s, which would've put a few Tinordi's, Churla's and Kocur's on his card. In the late 80s, it was 5 minutes each if a guy like Kocur decided enough was enough. In the early 90s, it was the rare reluctant 2 minutes call with the game misconduct/10 minute misconduct depending on what mood the ref was in. Today, if you wanna fix a guy like Bieksa, you get the Buttman package. Only time Bieksa ever got jumped in the new NHL was by Eager.

What would Corson's card look like today with the "I'm too good to fight people playing 3 minutes a night" card that is vogue today. It's hard to say, but you do the math.

juha82
legend
Posts 10249
07-12-11 07:07 AM - Post#1330485    

Peters went down later of his career but his start was solid for sure.
He got KO'd by M.Johnson but have to know he also scored a clear win over same guy Matt Johnson.
I remember Peters and Belak had one close fight but Belak beated him in other time.

Peters could win you with 2-3 big bombs, just ask from Brashear for example.


BGC99
veteran
Posts 393
BGC99
07-12-11 09:51 AM - Post#1330528    

  • Dupre2003 Said:
31359. Andrew Peters




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spJ8SL5hOy0

Jake's greatest hit's

licoricebiscuit
superstar
Posts 3371
07-13-11 03:37 PM - Post#1331033    

Ha Ha I cannot believe Karpa was brought up on any list. I guess he would show up on a "biggest douche" list.
Potius Mori Quam Foedari

juha82
legend
Posts 10249
07-14-11 03:52 AM - Post#1331179    

Fotiu, Dan Kordic, Link Gaetz, Troy Crowder and Brian McGrattan is interesting to rank.

It asks some smartness to rank RIGHT/CORRECTLY those guys though...

D.Kordic was impressive in his fights against Brashear, Cairns, Grimson, Vial, Langdon, Kocur, Simon and McSorley(although only edging him but a win is a win to me, no matter what style or how big winner you was).

Gaetz was very very very talented you see, i remember he did well with Probert and Kocur(in Round1) but also got ass kicking by Kocur in Round2 i remember but very great fighter he was in my book.
Not most easy to rank but...deserved to be such like Top50-55 fighter either, even higher.
Posux
Senior Vet
Posts 31924
Posux
07-29-11 03:18 AM - Post#1335960    

"5. NICK FOTIU..One of the most intimidating goons ever. Yes I say goon, because Fotiu had no skill, he was on the ice for one purpose, kickin' ass! His biggest fight was vs Behn Wilson & Fotiu ended it with solid right punch. Dusted another Flyer Paul Holmgren & had two slugfests with one time Canuck enforcer Jack McIlhargey, each winning one. Toughest Ranger ever, & one of the most popular. Apparently a golden gloves boxer."

juha82
legend
Posts 10249
07-29-11 03:25 AM - Post#1335962    

McIlhargey was very good fighter, so if peoples are critizing Fotius loss/losses to McIlhargey they are wrong.
Also Paterson won Fotiu but Paterson was very tough customer so its also a good defense for Fotiu.
Can u agree me Fotiu/Posux now(: (:
Fotiu lost to Lane but it is Pre-season fight but Lane was very good fighter, i remember he beated someone other great fighter(cant remember his name right now).

Sal
all star
Posts 1006
Sal
01-01-12 12:54 AM - Post#1383337    

Heres my list
1 Probert
2 Wilson
3 Brown
4 Kocur
5 Gillies
6 Fotiu
7 Nystrom
8 McSorley
9 Jonathan
10 Grimson
11 Brashear
12 Playfair
13 Miller
14 Domi
15 Wensink
16 Hunter
17 Semenko
18 Oreilly
19 Laraque
20 Twist

fire away!
juha82
legend
Posts 10249
01-01-12 01:03 AM - Post#1383339    

Thanks Sal, ok list for me.
Fotiu is underrated, but so is Tony Twist.
Peoples dont realize one fact about Fotiu; he wasnt only a fighter and he lost some fights when he was getting older.
He got pounded clearly by Paterson but he was old papa (=

Good list, hmm very interesting.
gulash
hall of famer
Posts 8842
gulash
04-05-12 10:52 AM - Post#1423960    

Where would you put Lyndon Byers.He had some big wins over Berube,Gillies[Older Gillies]John Kordic,Maguire,Troy Crowder,Cochrane,Martinson,Ewen,Van Dorp,Domi,Ray,Basil McRae.
Kwig2121
veteran
Posts 402
Kwig2121
02-10-13 05:03 PM - Post#1509115    

I'm a year late, but I will bite on this topic. Can only go from the time period I saw, which is late 70's to now:

1. Bob Probert
2. Dave Brown
3. Behn Wilson
4. Nick Fotiu
5. Clark Gillies
6. Terry O' Reilly
7. Glen Cochrane
8. Tie Domi
9. Tony Twist
10. Marty Mcsorley
11. Joey Kocur
12. Stu Grimson
13. Dave Richter
14. John Kordic
15. Tim Hunter
16. Donald Brashear
17. Paul Holmgren
18. Chris Nilan
19. Troy Crowder
20. Willi Plett

Topper77
regular
Posts 224
Topper77
02-10-13 05:18 PM - Post#1509129    

Which heavyweights did Richter beat? He loved to pick on the smaller guys.

No Simon or McCarthy?
Mike
Administrator
Posts 24477
Mike
02-10-13 05:48 PM - Post#1509142    

He definitely beat Kocur. He might have got the better of the Probert fight too.

I don't have him top 20 for the record either, but I do think he was a good fighter.

irish_66
hall of famer
Posts 9180
irish_66
02-10-13 06:04 PM - Post#1509145    

Cochrane top ten??? No way imo. Besides Nystrom(and many call that a draw), what were his best wins? Delorme, Nilan,? Not to mention, no real ko's due to lack of punching power.

Richter's card is far too light imo, to me he's like Battleship Kelly with his card.

And Nilan was maybe a 500 fighter-warrior yes, but not a top 20 guy.
Gretzky to Hextall after Hexy stoned him on a breakaway in Hexy's first game:"Who the hell are you?"
Hextall's response:"Who the hell are you?"

irish_66
hall of famer
Posts 9180
irish_66
02-10-13 06:07 PM - Post#1509147    

also, just curious where do many here perhaps the best enforcer ever(not fighter), Dave Schultz?He has to be a top 25 guy with his card and wins-and yes losses too I know.
Gretzky to Hextall after Hexy stoned him on a breakaway in Hexy's first game:"Who the hell are you?"
Hextall's response:"Who the hell are you?"

Kwig2121
veteran
Posts 402
Kwig2121
02-10-13 10:02 PM - Post#1509268    

The list is my opinion...as is everyone else's on this long thread.

I hated both Cochrane & Richter. They lacked a big fight card. I could say the same about Fotiu, Gillies, and even Behn Wilson, when you compare their cards to Probert, Domi, Brown, Mcsorely or even Grimson.

However you can't take away the fact that both Cochrane and Richter, rarely lost fights and they both fought damn well.

In comparison, yes I think they were better fighters than Mccarthy, arguably better fighters than Simon.

The big omission on my list was Playfair. Although he wasn't the same fighter in the late 70's early 80's when I began watching he should have made my top 10. Definately within the top 7 of all time.

But Mccarthy had a 1-3 yr run tops with the Flames lost a lot of weight and was a shell of himself with NYR & Boston. Same with Simon. Good fighter 1-3 yr run, then bounced around the league getting suspended for foolish follies rather than fistic prowness.

So yes, I would add Playfair, and in terms of won-loss record, and being feared, yeah Cochrane & Richter make my list.
TGR32
hall of famer
Posts 8663
TGR32
02-11-13 04:27 AM - Post#1509303    

  • irish_66 Said:
Cochrane top ten??? No way imo. Besides Nystrom(and many call that a draw), what were his best wins? Delorme, Nilan,? Not to mention, no real ko's due to lack of punching power.

Richter's card is far too light imo, to me he's like Battleship Kelly with his card.

And Nilan was maybe a 500 fighter-warrior yes, but not a top 20 guy.



RE: Cochrane's best wins

Marini 3X - At least one was a TKO
Bloodied and dominated Weir
Ovewelmed McClelland
Came back and pounded Brubaker in 84-85 after Brubaker got the jump on him.
Delorme 2X - I'd score one of those a TKO
Pounded Hillier

I think he did well against Kennedy too

good showings against Nystrom and Nilan

He TKO'd both Bomber and Brubaker when he was with the Canucks.
"So happy I decided to become a Seahawks fan."

Kanrok quitting on the Bears November 2016

Matt Dillon
legend
Posts 19397
02-11-13 06:52 AM - Post#1509310    

  • Topper77 Said:
Which heavyweights did Richter beat? He loved to pick on the smaller guys.

No Simon or McCarthy?



The way I look at the top ten, is who has the most wins over top 10 guys? Cochrane has just as many as alot on that list with his fights against Kocur and Probert. I don't have him top 10, but I really can't argue against it. I def take Cochrane over Simon. McCarthy would be a little closer.

Mike
Administrator
Posts 24477
Mike
02-11-13 02:03 PM - Post#1509540    

Having Tocchet in the top 20 is crazy. Yet having Mel Bridgman in the top 5 is crazier, so if that ranking is kosher without criticism, then I cant say too much about Tocchet. LOL

irish_66
hall of famer
Posts 9180
irish_66
02-11-13 03:14 PM - Post#1509569    

agreed , but as we know not many here have Mel top 5.
Gretzky to Hextall after Hexy stoned him on a breakaway in Hexy's first game:"Who the hell are you?"
Hextall's response:"Who the hell are you?"

Bridgman
Senior Vet
Posts 9382
Bridgman
02-11-13 03:34 PM - Post#1509575    

Did someone unleash the beast?
If I wasn't so tired from snowplowing for 3 days I'd chop this topic up.

Ok , it's official I'm "woken up"....

Mike
Administrator
Posts 24477
Mike
02-11-13 04:39 PM - Post#1509594    

LOL

JUHA will back me on the handsome one, the blond beauty. Kenny Baumgartner! LOL



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