hockey-fights.com
 Page 2 of 20 <2345>» Last
Username Post: NHL Top 20 All-time thread        (Topic#303764)
Hike
Veteran
Total Posts: 6905
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 10:28 AM - Post#304110    


    In response to joalkel

Quote:

I know Maloney got the snot beat out of by O'Reilly on at least two occassions.




Not when Maloney was in L.A. Maloney owned O'Reilly and beat him at least twice and one of them was a thorough ass kicking.
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment


 
Bridgman
Senior Vet
Total Posts: 9382
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 10:40 AM - Post#304125    


    In response to Hike

I'll always chime into a top 10 or 20 talk anytime! For me this is the funnest topic to talk about because it's so subjective.

What's great is that there's many factors/ways to make "top lists". Is longevity a factor? Is it just fight card? Division/conference? Era? etc. This is what makes it so subjective!

I rank on how I feel a guy in his prime will do on other guys in their prime. I don't discount a SJ Brown, Devil/Wing Bridgman, Chicago Cochrane or a Buffalo Gillies. That's my choice. No one can deny Probert wouldn't destroy a Nazorov in 1987 or that Bridgman would lose twice as a Flyer to Alan Kerr. That's my subjective opinions as to how I rank.

My point for chiming in is to debate Badduke's top 5 ranking of Brashear. Before going further I know and respect Badduke as a trader and poster, so it's nothing personal.

Badduke:
1) Are you ranking him for him NOW or his Canuck days, or overall.
2) How do you rank? If you choose best fight seasons at number one then he's legit. From 98-99 to 2001-02 he was top 2 no doubt! Before continuing, I will say theres a weaker competition since the mid 90's to present than any era.
3) How do you think he'd do head to head in multi-fights against Fotiu, Bridgman, Wilson, Brown, Probert, etc.
4) Why do you put him so high over others?

A good summer debate this will be guys.


 
GOON 21
superstar
Total Posts: 2779
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 01:09 PM - Post#304249    


    In response to Bridgman

Il try to post a list later, but i have to ask a question about someone on the list ~~~~~~ Jay Miller? top 20 how? i dont see it, ok he had a nice 5 year run or so, but was NEVER the champ, had no power, and was pretty bad the last year or 2 in LA, Noooooooooo flaming but im curious why some would put him top 20 ALL TIME? i just dont see it.. (honestly)
 
Posux
Senior Vet
Total Posts: 31533
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 01:34 PM - Post#304265    


    In response to GOON 21

Well, to start, he holds victories over Kordic, Brown, and Probert.


 
Holmgren
superstar
Total Posts: 3176
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
 
08-10-04 01:37 PM - Post#304272    


    In response to Posux

Jay Miller was just a shell of himself in LA. During his Boston years he was damn good, with victories over the above mentions guys. Had some great battles with Brown, who was in his prime then and some may consider the best ever.
I see Blue! . . . He looks glorious!


 
Kramer
Moderator
Total Posts: 36390
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
 
08-10-04 01:51 PM - Post#304281    


    In response to Holmgren

Just for fun, and it was probably slightly different the last time we did this.

Probert
Wilson
Gillies
Brown
Fotiu
Nystrom
Playfair
Semenko
Domi
Kordic

McSorley
Maloney
Kocur
Jonathan
Miller
Hunter
Wensink
O'Reilly
Schultz
Brashear

I can't list Ferguson, he's at the cutoff of my time frame to accurately list and debate players. From everything said, he was the real deal, and arguably the first real enforcer. Gordie Howe should get mention as should Bob Gassoff, but without footage, history, etc. it's tough to list these 3 players. Brashear is the newest installment in my list. His dominance has been overwhelming. Love him or hate him, he's been the man the past several years.
"Now, now, lay off Detroit. Them people is living in 'Mad Max' times." -Moe Syzlak

RIP To The King - Bob Probert 1965-2010


 
GOON 21
superstar
Total Posts: 2779
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 02:14 PM - Post#304310    


    In response to Kramer

Maybe so but i think there are guys who played during that era (the 1980's - early 90's) who were better than Jay Miller, i very well might be wrong but *some* rip other fighters for style/wins/etc and i say ok if thats true then throw Jay Miller into the mix..

Did he have BIG TKO's wins etc? lots of entertaining fights, great team enforcer, good guy BUT top 20 ALL time? Personally i think its a stretch...

Top 20 guys are guys who i think were dominant, top 3 fighters, had a long career and were possible threats to the crown/champ and i dont see how Jay Miller fits the bill..
 
Posux
Senior Vet
Total Posts: 31533
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 02:34 PM - Post#304332    


    In response to GOON 21

Goon, you don't think a guy who beat Kordic, Prober and Brown is a threat to the throne?


 
Kramer
Moderator
Total Posts: 36390
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
 
08-10-04 02:38 PM - Post#304337    


    In response to Posux

Wasn't he beating Kocur too, until Joey landed a rare left? Jay could hang/go anyone in that timeframe.
"Now, now, lay off Detroit. Them people is living in 'Mad Max' times." -Moe Syzlak

RIP To The King - Bob Probert 1965-2010


 
Bruins29
superstar
Total Posts: 3669
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
 
08-10-04 02:45 PM - Post#304343    


    In response to GOON 21

Quote:

Maybe so but i think there are guys who played during that era (the 1980's - early 90's) who were better than Jay Miller, i very well might be wrong but *some* rip other fighters for style/wins/etc and i say ok if thats true then throw Jay Miller into the mix..

Did he have BIG TKO's wins etc? lots of entertaining fights, great team enforcer, good guy BUT top 20 ALL time? Personally i think its a stretch...

Top 20 guys are guys who i think were dominant, top 3 fighters, had a long career and were possible threats to the crown/champ and i dont see how Jay Miller fits the bill..




Goon, are you aware of the official FC all time top 10?
 
GOON 21
superstar
Total Posts: 2779
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 04:59 PM - Post#304441    


    In response to Bruins29

1st off i dont want to "hijack thread" (maybe ill start one on Jay Miller) but a couple quick pointers..

Posux - i have to ask bro, what was his lifetime record TOTAL against those 3 guys? (.500 at best? 20 or so career fights? ) It also can be made that its actually under .500 against those 3!!, Kordic and he always had close battles, when Dave Brown would beat J he would beat him fairly cleanly/ez! ~~~~ Can someone give details on his fight(s) against Probert?

Kramer - exactly the point, maybe he was winning but Kocur SMOKED him with a "left" and down goes Miller, case closed guys he lost that fight..

Bruins29 - I dont want to sound like a pompous/ass type but NO WAY is Jay Miller top 10 all time, NO WAY!!


Just look at the list on that top 10 all timers and they brought something that Jay Miller NEVER-EVER brought imo to the table, fear + intimadation! Look at those list on "most top 10's" and almost all of em bring a fear/intimadation element that im sorry to say Jay Miller did not bring!

Behn Wilson? - lethal
Dave Brown? - fearless, scary + sometimes dirty
Clark Gillies? - sleeping giant, dont wake up
Nick Fotiu? - brought respect to NYR and got it from philly!
Bobby Nystrom? - fierce madman!
Dave Semenko? - young Semenko watch out!

You can even bring up guys like Joey Kocur or Tony Twist and there punching power and how people avoided that power at all cost, did anyone ever "FEAR" Jay Miller?
 
Posux
Senior Vet
Total Posts: 31533
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 05:09 PM - Post#304446    


    In response to GOON 21

Goon: I don't have my tapes in front of me, but going below 500 against those three is not a negative. Those three are three of the best to ever do it.

His series with Kordic is close to even. I believe he beat Brown twice. I only know of the win against Probert. Not sure about other times they've fought.

He beat on Nilan twice as well.

Yeah, Nystrom and Fotiu were intimidating, but what TKOs and KOs do they have to their name?

Miller was a madman at times as well....witiness him giving the finger to the other team's bench after winning a fight.

He also DRILLED Coxe in their bout...an great TKO.


 
the_Bulldog
Member
Total Posts: 4128
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 07:38 PM - Post#304521    


    In response to Bruins29

1. probert - consensus pick amongst his opponents makes me a believer too. his fight card is a masterpiece with most losses being avenged during his prime. a great 2 handed fighter with a solid understanding of his role. probert was never a liability on the ice either, taking a regular shift and yet fighting all comers. i also respect probert for being willing to take on the young no-names who always wanted to test him. his sweater was a tad loose and he lacked some in comparative punching power, but with all those great fights over his career, he's earned a pass on those counts.

2. wilson - i personally feel he was a significantly tougher one-on-one opponent than probert when wilson was on the prowl and looking to go. an unequalled combination of power, chin, balance and mean disposition - behn had it all when his health was at it's best. there is not one former enforcer who ever played against this guy that wasn't scared shitless of him if he lost his temper. he fought the best of his era (many of which multiple times in a truly great era of hockey enforcers), and his losses are like hen's teeth. this guy was rock solid on his skates and combined it with one of the hardest hitting right hands in history. you could not hurt behn wilson. more career fights would have cemented him as #1 imo.

3. brown - a true enforcer who scared just as many as behn wilson. and for good reason - brown looked to bust up his opponent and had fun doing it. he didn't care how he had to do it - just do it. he's known for his powerful left hand and his great reach, but brownie was a smarter technical fighter than most give him credit for. some of his losses are memorable, but his great wins are more so.

4. gillies - i have hard time knowing where jethro fits, because of his jekyll and hyde disposition. what i do know is that this was one dangerous motherfucker when the mood came over him to hurt somebody. some around here call it over-hype. not true. he scared even the toughest enforcers -the guys that didn't scare. i am certain this factor weighed heavily on his somewhat inactive fight card. not many guys could rival his punching power - regardless of era. had the mean streak been a tad wider, the list of broken bones and destruction would have been much longer than it already was. as i said, i have a hard time knowing where he fits up here, but i personally believe his reputation was fully justified - i've seen enough and heard enough to make that call. he therefore gets the #4 slot, despite a shallow fight card.

5. playfair - great reach and a powerful puncher who loved the toe-2-toers and broke more than his share of jaws and noses in doing it. another guy who many just chose to stay clear of. the only knock i have on larry was his indifference at times. other than that, he was a helluva fighter and a consensus top10 fighter regardless of who you ask. i rate him a top5er.

6. fotiu - nicky's losses seem to get their share of ink (most of which were way out of his prime), but not many were better than nicky when the big fight was on the line. equally adept with either hand and a damn good chin - nicky was as smart a hockey fighter as this game has seen. he was also a fair fighter - almost to a fault. what he lacked in pure punching power was more than made up for with his punching accuracy and well-above average hand speed - with either hand. i sincerely believe that fotiu was a guy that needed to fight mad or his skills were significantly compromised. and when he fought mad, he was near unbeatable imo.

7. nystrom - i have huge respect for this guy. his primetime fights are some of the best fights on record and rarely did bobby lose. and some of those wins are against the best ever. a great team fighter whose hand speed and chin is legendary. another guy who took a regular shift and fought to win every time.

8. jonathan - the only 5'8"(generous) fighter in NHL history to truly carry the reputation of a heavyweight fighter - and deservedly maintained it. stanley was a fighter's fighter - solid punching power in either hand, a rock solid chin (suffering no KOs and just one flash knock-down in his career), great balance, and a willing desire to trade punches and fight anybody - regardless of what he gave up in weight, reach and height. while guys like garry howatt (a very good fighter in his own right) were getting thrown around by wilson and holmgren, stan was beating them - and smiling after the fights. only 1 or 2 losses in well over 80 fights is a record that's hard to beat. the fact that he usually gave up a ton of size, makes it even more so.

9. cochrane - a very tough fighter, who made an immediate impact when he came into the league with philly (on an already stacked team). cochrane had above average punching power and a killer instinct like few others. he loses ranking because of his shirtless endeavors, but makes it back considering how well he fought despite fighting through nagging injuries a good part of his career. in many ways, he was the early 80s version of bobby gassoff.

10. kocur - the detroit/healthy version of joey kocur is a picture of power and destruction. although some of the opponents are less than stellar, kocur easily defines himself as one of the premiere punchers and KO artists in league history. in fact, i'm still surprised he got as many fights as he did back then. had kocur been able to save his hands and telegraph his punches a little less, there is no telling how long the list of fallen victims would have been. my knock on kocur is that his defense and chin was somewhat questionable. but with a RH weapon like he had in his early days, it was rarely needed.

11. mcsorley - a solid fighter and a helluva enforcer - unparallelled stamina gets him close to the top10

12. holmgren - i agree with those that feel paul is underrated by this board. he had his moments of playing/fighting dirty, but holmgren was one tough/mean sumbitch in his prime.

13. t. hunter - the best tactical fighter in league history.

14. semenko - his record of big wins often gets overlooked - but it shouldn't be. the consummate enforcer of the late 70s/early 80s - that was dave semenko.

15. domi - i've never been fond of his predictable fight style, but when you look at his career and what he's accomplished as an enforcer, he has to be considered in the upper-echelon of fighters all-time. might have the best chin too.

16. ferguson - the first enforcer - fergie defined the role and defined it well. this is a guy who patrolled an unwatered down league of some very tough and game fighters and was widely acknowledged as the league champ for 5 -6 years straight.

17. berube
18. gassoff
19. brashear
20. twist

HM - oreilly, wensink, beck, richter, fraser, miller, schultz, secord, laus

notable omissions:

j. kordic - the most overrated fighter on this board imo.

mccarthy - i keep trying to remember when he was a calgary flame.
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008


 
chaser
hall of famer
Total Posts: 8410
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 07:47 PM - Post#304526    


    In response to the_Bulldog

Bulldog, quick question. I see you mentioned Laus, would you rate him higher then Simon all time?
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!


 

*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 07:49 PM - Post#304527    


    In response to Hike

O'Reilly got beat one time by Maloney. I have a television interview of O'Reilly talking about the fight. It was after he hit Butch Goring on clean check. Maloney skate over to O'Reilly. O'Reilly didn't know his intention was to fight and even leaned in towards Maloney to hear what he was saying. Maloney hit him in the nose and O'Reilly couldn't see. Maloney did kick his ass and he readily admitted it.
 
Badduke14
superstar
Total Posts: 4786
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 07:57 PM - Post#304532    


    In response to Bridgman

NickyV, I have a few considerations when I do my rankings. To me, the enforcer's fight card & an enforcer's win/loss % are the two most important considerations when ranking a player. The more opponents on the card, the more impressive that can be. Guys like Domi, McSorley, Nilan & Probert probably have the most impressive fight cards. They've pretty much fought all other heavyweights, lightweights etc..
To me, what "could have been" is a waste of time, because I think facts are more important than what never was.
Also, I truely beleive where a player plays in his prime should not be a factor but on this board & other boards it is. There are WAY more FC members from the East than members on the West Coast. Many guys don't recall seeing a PRIME Odjick, McSorley or Brashear. They recall a PRIME Domi, Brown, Wilson Worrell etc...
David Jesiolowski: Likeable balding WHL gonk. (Napes)


 
the_Bulldog
Member
Total Posts: 4128
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 08:11 PM - Post#304536    


    In response to chaser

chaser: i had chris simon in my top20 all-time (around 18-20) range as early as a few years ago, but since then, he's fallen out of favor with me on the all-time rankings. his overall fight card is nothing extraordinary (given the guys he should have been fighting) and he's come well short of the expectations i had for him. coming out of junior hockey, simon looked like he had the tools to be an all-time top10 fighter, and in his early years with quebec and colorado, he was living up to that promise. he was a powerful fighter with a tremendous left hand. but since then, he's been a pure underachiever. yeah, he's had his chronic shoulder injury problems to deal with, but i honestly think that he hit his peak before his time. his mindset changed, and along with it, his fighting ability dropped off significantly. and i think he knows it too. he rarely looks for the big fights - actually hasn't for a long time. on the other hand, i look at a guy like paul laus as an overachiever - a solid toe2toe style fighter who won a lot of his fights on pure aggression and desire. he could take a punch better than most, had a stinging right hand and his endurance was better than simon's imo. laus seemed to be willing to take a fight at any time if the need was there - and fight his ass off. with simon, he's choosy. so yes - i would rank paul laus higher on my all-time scale than simon.
"He may have looked like he lost the fight, but he didn't." Diogenes 12/28/2005

"this is classic assholery at it's best". NYRfan 5/27/2008


 
Bridgman
Senior Vet
Total Posts: 9382
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 08:29 PM - Post#304546    


    In response to the_Bulldog

Badduke,

I'll respect the way you rank but let me ask you this....do you purposely NOT put Fotiu anywhere in your top 20 and if you don't, WHY?

Reason I say that is that he doesn't meet your criteria. He HAS a weak fight card and has a not-so-great win/loss percentage (boht in comparisons to other fighters). That to me is why you have to look at "what ifs".

ALso, how do you compare guys from different eras? Also, do you believe in primes? As Bulldog says above, a Quebec and ESPECIALLY a Colorado Simon is as awesome as anyone gets, but it's one year. If that works for him that's fine. We all have different cutoffs.

Also, conferences should take a toll. We are unblessed that Probert and Kocur only played max 2 games a year in Detroit vs Philly. (or was it 3 back then).

We could go on and on about differences. For me, the conclusion to draw for all the proponents and excuses for who's in a top 10 or so narrows down to "who in thier prime would beat who".

Other topics/criteria for best fighter lists that would change my rankings:

*Longevity fighters
*Detailed conference/division analysis
*era

etc, etc.

Also, do you have a top 10 or 20? I'm real curious not to scrutinize it but am curious as to how you rank and the consistency of it.

Keep in mind, I KNOW Brashear was champ for 98-99 and 99-00 in my books. But that two-peat and a few years of top 3 for me in a weaker era of fighting can't hang with Probert, Bridgman, Wilson, Gillies, O'Reilly, Fotiu, Brown, Nystrom,Playfair, Cochrane or even Holmgren-my top 11 guys all time.

I think head to head he's not going to fare well.

Again, it's all opinions. Proof of domination for me is 3 fights winning the majority. Not going to happen in an all time ranking.

Good points and interesting read guys!


 
chaser
hall of famer
Total Posts: 8410
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 08:33 PM - Post#304548    


    In response to Bridgman

Thanks Bulldog, nice post on your top 20 BTW.
THE ORIGINAL CHASER!!


 
Hike
Veteran
Total Posts: 6905
*
Average Post Ranks%:             
User Rank%:                       
08-10-04 08:37 PM - Post#304552    


    In response to joalkel

Joalkel, I'm not about to bad mouth O'Reilly as I agree with you that he was one of the games great warriors. You can count me as another who has nothing but admiration and respect for Taz.

He fought in an era when there were no rules to protect fighters like you have today. You fought till someone dropped or they pulled you apart. He fought despite injuries, like the time he fought Gillies with a separated shoulder, going to the box and popping his shoulder back in, talk about a warrior. Fighters today don't want to fight if they have a hangnail.

He never backed down from anyone and always answered the call, be it an outright challenge or to protect one of his teammates. O'Reilly fought some wild battles with Dave Schultz, Bob Kelly, Mel Bridgeman, Clarke Gillies, Gary Howatt, and many others, all Hall of Fame Fighters.

If there were a hall of fame for fighters, O'Reilly would be one of the original inductees.

But he lost to Maloney twice in the same game. I was sitting in the L.A. Forum when these fights went down.
When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken makes a contribution, but the pig makes a committment


 
 Page 2 of 20 <2345>» Last
Icon Legend Permissions & Sharing Options Topic Options
Print Topic


73918 Views
Follow
50 Online Now
3 viewable users and 1 hidden plus 46 guests are online now.
Ad
FusionBB™ Version 3.2 | ©2003-2017 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.313 seconds.   Total Queries: 344   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT-5). Current time is 02:01 PM
Top