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Username Post: The Nashville Statement        (Topic#549296)
phantomenforcer
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08-30-17 05:22 PM - Post#1703592    



https://cbmw.org/nashville-statement

Quick version: Evangelical leaders release affirmations and denials about sexuality and marriage.

I'm curious to hear opinions for and against this. I purposefully left out articles pertaining to this story and linked directly to the subject at hand.

As much as I feel one way or the other about this, the "news" articles are not very subtle about how they think you should feel about this.
 
foolish
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08-30-17 05:52 PM - Post#1703593    


    In response to phantomenforcer

Well that is certainly nothing new.

As far as I'm concerned, they can do what they want inside the tax-free walls of their churches and the homes of their congregants. I'll even let them preach on street corners if it makes them happy.

Just keep that shit out of the secular world.


 
Johnny_Upton
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08-30-17 06:49 PM - Post#1703594    


    In response to foolish

8 & 10 seem to be in conflict

Not a fan of some evangelicals as the seem more concerned with the size of their flock Vs having a guiding set of values.
Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves.

#Filthystrong


 
Johnny_Upton
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08-30-17 06:50 PM - Post#1703595    


    In response to foolish

  • foolish Said:
Well that is certainly nothing new.

As far as I'm concerned, they can do what they want inside the tax-free walls of their churches and the homes of their congregants. I'll even let them preach on street corners if it makes them happy.

Just keep that shit out of the secular world.




So keep anyone with religious beliefs in the closet?

How tolerant...
Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves.

#Filthystrong


 
foolish
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08-30-17 06:58 PM - Post#1703597    


    In response to Johnny_Upton

  • Johnny_Upton Said:
  • foolish Said:
Well that is certainly nothing new.

As far as I'm concerned, they can do what they want inside the tax-free walls of their churches and the homes of their congregants. I'll even let them preach on street corners if it makes them happy.

Just keep that shit out of the secular world.




So keep anyone with religious beliefs in the closet?

How tolerant...




Not at all, by saying "street corners" I was poetically saying preach away. Just don't force people who don't believe to live according to your mythological deity's alleged proclamations.

I'll concede this for the topic of abortion as that is a debate over one groups definition of human life rather than mythological imperatives.


Edited by foolish on 08-30-17 06:59 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Kanrok
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08-30-17 07:27 PM - Post#1703598    


    In response to phantomenforcer

Nothing new or novel here.

Perhaps the evangelicals felt it was necessary to publish these concepts.

I would gently direct them to the Catholic catechism.

Much more comprehensive.

“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
Johnny_Upton
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08-30-17 07:45 PM - Post#1703600    


    In response to foolish

  • foolish Said:
  • Johnny_Upton Said:
  • foolish Said:
Well that is certainly nothing new.

As far as I'm concerned, they can do what they want inside the tax-free walls of their churches and the homes of their congregants. I'll even let them preach on street corners if it makes them happy.

Just keep that shit out of the secular world.




So keep anyone with religious beliefs in the closet?

How tolerant...




Not at all, by saying "street corners" I was poetically saying preach away. Just don't force people who don't believe to live according to your mythological deity's alleged proclamations.

I'll concede this for the topic of abortion as that is a debate over one groups definition of human life rather than mythological imperatives.




Dont see the differences between an imaginary friends proclamations and an individual belief system - they're all personal preferences. You just happen to support one view over the other.

Sad your bigotry is showing thru
Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves.

#Filthystrong


 
foolish
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08-30-17 09:40 PM - Post#1703604    


    In response to Johnny_Upton

If you really can't differentiate between following your own belief system and someone else's that's forced on you, I think you may be a communist.
 
Kanrok
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08-30-17 10:21 PM - Post#1703606    


    In response to foolish

I am of the mind that I am incapable of imposing my beliefs on anyone else.

The most I can do is propose. Not impose.
“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
Johnny_Upton
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08-31-17 05:51 AM - Post#1703611    


    In response to foolish

  • foolish Said:
If you really can't differentiate between following your own belief system and someone else's that's forced on you, I think you may be a communist.



So, I can ignore any law that doesn't jive with my personal belief system? cool.

Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves.

#Filthystrong


 
phantomenforcer
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08-31-17 08:16 AM - Post#1703616    


    In response to Kanrok

I don't really understand the purpose of them publishing these articles. As Kanrok states, there is nothing new or novel here, just more of what you would expect from this type of group.

I can't imagine that the thought process is that they are going to bring people to their cause by publishing this. I think that all it serves to do is bolster the beliefs of their current followers and alienate those who are not.

It's as if they wanted to draw a line in the sand that was already there and everyone knew about already.

So then there is this fella that reminds me of a young Mr. Bean caricature (sorry I could not find the original video):



There are many examples of this type of video out there. They are all under the guise of educating folks into how to be understanding and accepting of their life choices (or is it lack or choice?).

Naturally the media will quickly condemn the folks who engineered the Nashville Statement, perhaps rightfully so, perhaps not. Nothing but heaps of praise and laurels of bravery will be bestowed upon the youtube warriors (youtube comments notwithstanding)

Some claim that these folks suffer from a mental illness, others say it is natural. It strikes me as narcissistic. I don't particularly care what you do with your life and if I ever met any of them I believe I could have a conversation with them as I could anyone else. But to presume that I should just completely change my thought process to suit your whims, fancies, feelings, beliefs, or biology seems over the top and a bit condescending.

Both extreme sides on this issue have an air of moral superiority and feel they need to educate us poor folk that just don't get it. It is mildly annoying.

One thing that I will credit the transgendered folk on is that they seem to all be on the same page with things for the most part. Although I'm willing to concede that that may be an illusion because they seem to demand different things all the time. It may be that the outlandish demands seem to blend together and appear to be a common cause.

On the other hand, religious organizations vary greatly on the subject. Here is an article of 7 responses to the Nashville Statement attributed to a Catholic Priest

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/...


"Re #Nashville Statement: I affirm: That God loves all LGBT people. I deny: That Jesus wants us to insult, judge or further marginalize them.
I affirm: That all of us are in need of conversion. I deny: That LGBT people should be in any way singled out as the chief or only sinners.
I affirm: That when Jesus encountered people on the margins he led with welcome not condemnation. I deny: That Jesus wants any more judging.
I affirm: That LGBT people are, by virtue of baptism, full members of the church. I deny: That God wants them to feel that they don’t belong
I affirm: That LGBT people have been made to feel like dirt by many churches. I deny: That Jesus wants us to add to their immense suffering.
I affirm: That LGBT people are some of the holiest people I know. I deny: That Jesus wants us to judge others, when he clearly forbade it.
I affirm that the Father loves LGBT people, the Son calls them and the Holy Spirit guides them. I deny nothing about God’s love for them."


While clearly promoting tolerance towards these folks, he does stop short of stating that they should be entitled to marriage which is something the Nashville Statement was clearly against.

So is this retort and anti-Nashville Statement or just a more tactfully written Nashville Statement. It's hard for me to know the intent of the author, but it seems to me he disagrees with much of the original Nashville Statement.

One thing I am sure of is that works like the Nashville Statement condemning that lifestyle and SJW accept us or else videos do nothing but cause divisiveness. One sided videos or articles will tend to be that way, but are so wildly popular compared to both sided collaborating together to make a video or article.
 
Kanrok
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08-31-17 08:26 AM - Post#1703617    


    In response to phantomenforcer

The rationale of the Nashville Statement is found in the preamble.

I don't disagree with the rationale for publishing their stance.

I also find that I agree with what Fr. Martin said in his response.

But you should know that Fr. Martin, a Jesuit, is in favor of changing the Catholic Church's stance on recognizing gay marriage.

I disagree with that.
“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
phantomenforcer
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08-31-17 09:22 AM - Post#1703621    


    In response to Kanrok

Maybe not understanding the thought process was the wrong choice of words for me. I get that they want to publish their beliefs as stated in the preamble.

I do not understand how they think this will work and not just cause divisiveness. Have they ever won over people this way? Maybe they have, I don't know, but my experience with human nature seems that being standoffish is not a way to convince others of your argument.

So is Martin a lone wolf in the church and does not represent a majority of opinions concerning the church's stance? Even if this is the case it supports my hypothesis that the church does not have singular stance.

I think the fact that there are so many different religions, many with multiple differing denominations with their own take on things hampers them.

In any case, as much as I am not on board with religion, the agenda being pushed by people in the videos is equally as distasteful to me, and I generally support their rights to equality when it comes to marriage and whatnot. But some of the stuff is ludicrous and makes it hard to take them seriously. I think that harms their progress when it comes to things that really matter.

 
Kanrok
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08-31-17 09:28 AM - Post#1703624    


    In response to phantomenforcer

I suspect they issued their statement because it forms the basis of their beliefs, and as far as I know, evangelicals don't have a central repository of the faith like the Catholic Church does. (See, e.g., the Catechism).

Which leads me to your second point, the Catholic Church does, in fact, have a single, solitary doctrine. Fr. Martin is but one of many Catholics espousing an heretical position.

He is not the first, nor will he be the last.

I would Bank on the fact that his position will never become doctrine in the Catholic Church.
“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
phantomenforcer
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08-31-17 09:32 AM - Post#1703625    


    In response to Kanrok

Does the catholic church condone what he does as it is a heretical position? Or do they just tolerate him?
 
Kanrok
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08-31-17 10:24 AM - Post#1703627    


    In response to phantomenforcer

  • phantomenforcer Said:
Does the catholic church condone what he does as it is a heretical position? Or do they just tolerate him?



That's a great question.

Under Pope Francis Fr. Martin is not only tolerated, in some quarters he's celebrated. He is actually a representative to the Vatican on some group whose name escapes me.

While I believe the camel's nose is under the tent on sexual matters (Amoris Latetia is problematic on this front, for instance) I do not believe this line of thinking will ever be condoned.

“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
phantomenforcer
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08-31-17 10:51 AM - Post#1703628    


    In response to Kanrok

  • Kanrok Said:
  • phantomenforcer Said:
Does the catholic church condone what he does as it is a heretical position? Or do they just tolerate him?



That's a great question.

Under Pope Francis Fr. Martin is not only tolerated, in some quarters he's celebrated. He is actually a representative to the Vatican on some group whose name escapes me.

While I believe the camel's nose is under the tent on sexual matters (Amoris Latetia is problematic on this front, for instance) I do not believe this line of thinking will ever be condoned.





Interesting. So he's not necessarily condoned, but is tolerated and in some circles, celebrated.

Could this be the beginning of a slippery slope for the catholic church if his ideas start to take root and spread?


What's next, women priests and ribeye Fridays?
 
foolish
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08-31-17 11:23 AM - Post#1703629    


    In response to Johnny_Upton

  • Johnny_Upton Said:
  • foolish Said:
If you really can't differentiate between following your own belief system and someone else's that's forced on you, I think you may be a communist.



So, I can ignore any law that doesn't jive with my personal belief system? cool.





Ummm...not sure how you got there.

But I think we DO have a long history of successfully challenging laws that offend our religious sensibilities. I'm thinking Hobby Lobby knows a bit about it. No one should be forced to perform against their religion. Thats not the same as forcing non-believers to follow the rules of your denomination.

 
foolish
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08-31-17 11:26 AM - Post#1703630    


    In response to Kanrok

  • Kanrok Said:
The rationale of the Nashville Statement is found in the preamble.

I don't disagree with the rationale for publishing their stance.

I also find that I agree with what Fr. Martin said in his response.

But you should know that Fr. Martin, a Jesuit, is in favor of changing the Catholic Church's stance on recognizing gay marriage.

I disagree with that.



KR - do you believe that gays shouldn't be able to marry? or just not marry in a church?
 
Kanrok
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08-31-17 11:56 AM - Post#1703631    


    In response to phantomenforcer

  • phantomenforcer Said:
  • Kanrok Said:
  • phantomenforcer Said:
Does the catholic church condone what he does as it is a heretical position? Or do they just tolerate him?



That's a great question.

Under Pope Francis Fr. Martin is not only tolerated, in some quarters he's celebrated. He is actually a representative to the Vatican on some group whose name escapes me.

While I believe the camel's nose is under the tent on sexual matters (Amoris Latetia is problematic on this front, for instance) I do not believe this line of thinking will ever be condoned.





Interesting. So he's not necessarily condoned, but is tolerated and in some circles, celebrated.

Could this be the beginning of a slippery slope for the catholic church if his ideas start to take root and spread?


What's next, women priests and ribeye Fridays?



The problem with his ideas taking root and spreading is that it would undercut the church's doctrine on sexual activity. The camel's nose is already under the tent with Pope Francis. His paper "Amoris Letitia" has opened the door to divorced and remarried Catholics to take communion. If that concept takes root, then the whole basis for chastity and sex within a sacramental marriage is undercut.

I believe there is a faction within the Vatican that wants the Church to recognize gay marriage.

On the issue of women (or is it womyn?) priests, I did some research a couple of years ago, and if I recall it correctly, technically speaking a woman can be a Cardinal, but not a priest, bishop or deacon. It is theoretically (and theologically) possible because the position of Cardinal is not an "ordained" class.

We can still eat meat on Friday, except during Lent.

I like that discipline.
“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
Kanrok
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08-31-17 12:11 PM - Post#1703632    


    In response to foolish

  • foolish Said:
  • Kanrok Said:
The rationale of the Nashville Statement is found in the preamble.

I don't disagree with the rationale for publishing their stance.

I also find that I agree with what Fr. Martin said in his response.

But you should know that Fr. Martin, a Jesuit, is in favor of changing the Catholic Church's stance on recognizing gay marriage.

I disagree with that.



KR - do you believe that gays shouldn't be able to marry? or just not marry in a church?



I do not believe they should be married in the Catholic Church.

On gay marriage in a secular sense, I understand their position because from their standpoint, when gay folk survey the landscape, they can credibly say that us heteros did a piss poor job maintaining the standard. One man, one woman, married for life with the primary purpose of raising a family has been fairly undercut. Contraception, abortion, divorce on demand, cheating, pornography. I don't see how gay marriage makes the institution weaker.

But at the end of the day, my feelings on gay marriage are irrelevant. It goes to show that I am totally incapable of imposing my beliefs on others!

From a theological standpoint, I want everyone to go to heaven when they die. Whether a person will or will not get there is not for me to judge or decide. Way above my pay grade. I am only responsible for me, and to my family. However, If asked, I will talk to anyone about it.
“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
phantomenforcer
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08-31-17 12:29 PM - Post#1703633    


    In response to Kanrok

So let's discuss a hypothetical:

Say these ideas do take root and decisions are made to undercut the basis of the catholic church. For example:

Gay marriage is accepted, divorced and remarried can take communion...basically things that would have never been entertained 50 years ago, but now they are part of the deal and pope approved.

Do you think your ideology would evolve along with the church or would you distance yourself from it?

Second, non-hypothetical line of questions that you can ignore if I'm over the line:

Has the church changed something in your time of belief that you have disagreed with? If so, how did you deal with that change?

 
Kanrok
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08-31-17 01:01 PM - Post#1703635    


    In response to phantomenforcer

  • phantomenforcer Said:
So let's discuss a hypothetical:

Say these ideas do take root and decisions are made to undercut the basis of the catholic church. For example:

Gay marriage is accepted, divorced and remarried can take communion...basically things that would have never been entertained 50 years ago, but now they are part of the deal and pope approved.

Do you think your ideology would evolve along with the church or would you distance yourself from it?

Second, non-hypothetical line of questions that you can ignore if I'm over the line:

Has the church changed something in your time of belief that you have disagreed with? If so, how did you deal with that change?





There are levels of rules in the Catholic Church, there is Dogma, Doctrine, Discipline.

Dogma is never-changing. These are the revealed truths by Christ and explicitly defined by what is called the Magisterium of the Church. Chirst's divinity, the "real presence" the trinity, etc. are examples of dogmatic teaching.

Doctrine differs from dogma in that it can be disputed and discussed until the Magisterium officially defines a position. This category includes things like abortion, marriage, premarital sex, etc. The Magisteruium has explicitly defined these rules, so they are no longer subject to discussion (except for Modernists like Fr. Martin!)

Disciplines include things like eating meat on Friday, married priests, communion in the hand, altar girls, saying the Mass in Latin, etc. These things are subject to change depending upon circumstances.

I cannot think of something that the Church changed in my life that I disagreed with.

I will say that changing the rules on divorce and remarriage, gay marriage, contraception, and abortion would do irreparable damage to the Church.

I fully believe all magisterial teaching of the Church. If they decide to change them (and I am fairly confident they won't) I would leave the church, because it will lose it's status as truly "catholic."

You cannot claim to be a moral leader when the morals are malleable.



“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
phantomenforcer
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08-31-17 01:32 PM - Post#1703636    


    In response to Kanrok

I'm particularly interested in the doctrines as this seems to be where most of the controversy is derived.

Are there any current doctrines that you disagree with?


The churches I attended/forced to go to when I was younger were more cut and dry. And although they differed one thing remained consistent, what was wrong was wrong, what was right was right. It didn't seem like there was a difference between doctrine and discipline as you have described them in the catholic church. It seemed to be all doctrine....not up for discussion. Another church would have differences in doctrine, but still not up for discussion.

I never liked the rigidity of that and often I was pressured into thinking in a way that felt wrong to me.
 
Kanrok
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08-31-17 01:55 PM - Post#1703637    


    In response to phantomenforcer

I had an interesting conversation with an atheist expert that I hired in a case I was handling.

We talked for a couple of hours, maybe 15 minutes about the case, and the rest of the time about Catholicism.

He made a point about contraception that I was not familiar with. He indicated that the Catholic Church was very close to allowing contraception back some 40 years ago or so. Maybe even 50 years ago. The argument had to do with the fact that some forms of contraception did not destroy an embryo, but stopped the process of life before it got started. I thought it was a well-reasoned and scientific explanation.

However, when I got back home to do some research on it, I was convinced that the Church got it right after all. It had to do more with the theological rationale behind the "pelvic issues" - as one of my favorite Catholic apologists Fr. now Bishop Robert Barron says -

So, while I recognize that 90% plus Catholics regularly use some form of contraception, I still maintain that the standard the Church sets on this issue is correct.

When I came back into the Church I was marginally pro-choice. I found the issue to be annoying and was confronted by an older K of C member when I joined that organization. He asked me point blank, "you are pro-life, aren't you?" I shrugged and agreed that I was, but really I didn't find it all that objectionable. After I had a chance to research the issue in depth, I found that I became vehemently pro-life. Even to the point that I am now against the death penalty.

Fr. Barron had an hour long talk with Dave Rubin that I found to be an excellent primer on the way I think about the Catholic church in modern times. Barron is well-spoken and smart. Dave Rubin is terrific as a host, and the whole hour was respectful and interesting.

This is a link to the interview (I happen to find Rubin to be engaging and honest): https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/article/dav e-...

So, to answer your question, I was marginally pro-choice and somewhat agnostic about contraception. Now I consider myself to be fairly orthodox in my views.

The Church sets the standard on morals, including "pelvic" issues. The whole point of the Catholic exercise is to reach the standard that is set. Most of us fall woefully short, me probably more than most. But the idea is to work at it. Seek forgiveness for falling short and soldier on. One of my favorite lines is "Be a saint, what else is there?"

I'm working on it. Failing more than being successful, but getting better!
“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
foolish
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08-31-17 03:40 PM - Post#1703639    


    In response to Kanrok

My old man told me that Vatican II decided that condoms were ok. And my HS Guidance office had a bowl on the desk of the secretary..... but apparently no such allowance was ever made.... which brings me to a point that I have a fair bit of trouble with:

When the church started, none of the dogma (or very little of it) was dogma. Its evolved over hundreds of years. The rules are orgasm denial being amongst them. In the beginning, folks generally married soon after reaching physical maturity. I believe it is accepted that Mary was no older than 16 at the time of Jesus' birth. So abstinence and keeping your hands off yourself was a chore for couple years really, then you were hitched and banging.

Flash forward to today, the average age on marriage must be in the mid-late 20s. So to abstain and also not masturbate requires at least a decade of denial. Science tells us that this is REALLY bad for the male anatomy. Form what I've heard, to ward off cancer and keep your prostate healthy, you're supposed to empty the pipes 20+ times a month. I'm sure there are doubters and anecdotal evidence that this is untrue, but this is the current direction of medical science.

I wonder what level of scientific "proof" would be required for the church to chain doctrine and set out "rules" around chaste release? It can't stand that - when danger is proven beyond doubt - that the church could continue to demand a behavior that is injurious, could it? Not to mention that damaging the reproductive system will eventually lead to less parishioners which means less $ which means less huge hats in the Vatican!!!!
 
Kanrok
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08-31-17 04:00 PM - Post#1703640    


    In response to foolish

There are mitigating factors that go into whether a certain...ahem...activity actually amounts to a mortal sin. The Church takes into account that there are certain things beyond our control and as a consequence, it may not meet the strict elements of a "mortal sin."

See, e.g., CC 2342 "Self-mastery is a long and exacting work. One can never consider it acquired once and for all. It presupposes renewed effort at all stages of life. The effort required can be more intense in certain periods, such as when the personality is being formed during childhood and adolescence."

CC 2352: "To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability."

*THIS IS NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS THEOLOGICAL ADVICE*
“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
phantomenforcer
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08-31-17 04:15 PM - Post#1703641    


    In response to Kanrok

I'm wary of people who and groups that claim to be atheist experts. After all atheism is not a group or a standard to live up to, or a set of rules to live by.

For me it's a simple lack of belief. Nothing more or less. Everyone's road to belief or atheism is different and makes sense to the individual. I try hard not to tar all religious folks with the same brush as I know each set of beliefs, while sometimes similar, can be wildly different.

And while groups like the recently mentioned FFR foundation do some good to prevent the overreach of religion into government, they sometimes take it to a cult like level of witch hunting every little thing that has even the slightest reference to religion. That annoys me a lot as the only atheists that people hear about are these folks. The rest of us mingle with them every day, a lot of times without them even knowing it, yet if it comes to light you're the guy that wants to ban Christmas.

A lot of self proclaimed atheist "experts" that I hear and read about are completely obsessed with religion whether it be arguing it, trying to debunk it, or goofing on it.

While I find myself in the latter group more times than I'd like, I don't claim to be an expert or pretend to have all of the answers or even have arguments for every possible conceived talking point for and against religion.
 
phantomenforcer
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08-31-17 04:19 PM - Post#1703642    


    In response to foolish

  • foolish Said:
My old man told me that Vatican II decided that condoms were ok. And my HS Guidance office had a bowl on the desk of the secretary..... but apparently no such allowance was ever made.... which brings me to a point that I have a fair bit of trouble with:

When the church started, none of the dogma (or very little of it) was dogma. Its evolved over hundreds of years. The rules are orgasm denial being amongst them. In the beginning, folks generally married soon after reaching physical maturity. I believe it is accepted that Mary was no older than 16 at the time of Jesus' birth. So abstinence and keeping your hands off yourself was a chore for couple years really, then you were hitched and banging.

Flash forward to today, the average age on marriage must be in the mid-late 20s. So to abstain and also not masturbate requires at least a decade of denial. Science tells us that this is REALLY bad for the male anatomy. Form what I've heard, to ward off cancer and keep your prostate healthy, you're supposed to empty the pipes 20+ times a month. I'm sure there are doubters and anecdotal evidence that this is untrue, but this is the current direction of medical science.

I wonder what level of scientific "proof" would be required for the church to chain doctrine and set out "rules" around chaste release? It can't stand that - when danger is proven beyond doubt - that the church could continue to demand a behavior that is injurious, could it? Not to mention that damaging the reproductive system will eventually lead to less parishioners which means less $ which means less huge hats in the Vatican!!!!



I just call it "getting the poison out." Having science on my side now is just a bonus.
 
Johnny_Upton
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08-31-17 10:17 PM - Post#1703645    


    In response to foolish

  • foolish Said:
  • Johnny_Upton Said:
  • foolish Said:
If you really can't differentiate between following your own belief system and someone else's that's forced on you, I think you may be a communist.



So, I can ignore any law that doesn't jive with my personal belief system? cool.





Ummm...not sure how you got there.

But I think we DO have a long history of successfully challenging laws that offend our religious sensibilities. I'm thinking Hobby Lobby knows a bit about it. No one should be forced to perform against their religion. Thats not the same as forcing non-believers to follow the rules of your denomination.





You are hung up on where the beliefs come from.

Sorry you are an idiot

4 legs good, 2 legs better
Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves.

#Filthystrong


 
foolish
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09-01-17 10:33 AM - Post#1703656    


    In response to Johnny_Upton

  • Johnny_Upton Said:
  • foolish Said:
  • Johnny_Upton Said:
  • foolish Said:
If you really can't differentiate between following your own belief system and someone else's that's forced on you, I think you may be a communist.



So, I can ignore any law that doesn't jive with my personal belief system? cool.





Ummm...not sure how you got there.

But I think we DO have a long history of successfully challenging laws that offend our religious sensibilities. I'm thinking Hobby Lobby knows a bit about it. No one should be forced to perform against their religion. Thats not the same as forcing non-believers to follow the rules of your denomination.





You are hung up on where the beliefs come from.

Sorry you are an idiot

4 legs good, 2 legs better




I must be.... b/c your prods and responses see very trollish and I'm sure that can't be right.

So your accusation that I'm hung up on where the beliefs come from is interesting. I don't think "Hung up on" is appropriate.

Lets say I don't believe in a specific deity - lets call it Crossfit. There is a book of Crossfit's expectations for its flock. In this book it says that Crossfitters shall not eat Carbs.

Now I'm fine with crtossfitters not eating carbs. I'm fine with having to listen to the cross fitters I work with rattling on and on about how great their cult is and how evil carbs are.

I'm not fine with Crossfitters lobbying for laws and regulations preventing the sale of carbs to everyone because they find them offensive.

Is that simple enough for you? I could make a similar analogy about islam, feminism, the NFL and christianity. Its not hard to follow. You do what you want in so far as it doesn't impact my ability to live as I want.

Get it Genius? My "Hang Up" isn't where the beliefs come from, its whether or not I share them and am being forced to live by them.

Edited by foolish on 09-01-17 10:39 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Kanrok
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09-01-17 10:59 AM - Post#1703658    


    In response to phantomenforcer

  • phantomenforcer Said:
I'm wary of people who and groups that claim to be atheist experts. After all atheism is not a group or a standard to live up to, or a set of rules to live by.

For me it's a simple lack of belief. Nothing more or less. Everyone's road to belief or atheism is different and makes sense to the individual. I try hard not to tar all religious folks with the same brush as I know each set of beliefs, while sometimes similar, can be wildly different.

And while groups like the recently mentioned FFR foundation do some good to prevent the overreach of religion into government, they sometimes take it to a cult like level of witch hunting every little thing that has even the slightest reference to religion. That annoys me a lot as the only atheists that people hear about are these folks. The rest of us mingle with them every day, a lot of times without them even knowing it, yet if it comes to light you're the guy that wants to ban Christmas.

A lot of self proclaimed atheist "experts" that I hear and read about are completely obsessed with religion whether it be arguing it, trying to debunk it, or goofing on it.

While I find myself in the latter group more times than I'd like, I don't claim to be an expert or pretend to have all of the answers or even have arguments for every possible conceived talking point for and against religion.



My bad for not explaining properly.

The expert was an obstetrician. I met him and his wife for dinner the night before his deposition in a case I was handling. He was also an atheist.

He might have been an expert on atheism as well, but that didn't come up in the conversation.

We had a pleasant 2 hour discussion, mostly about Catholicism. He was interested in knowing whether some of the things he believed about the faith were true.

I was able to clear up some misinformation he received (i.e., Papal infallibility does not mean Papal impeccability for instance) and we agreed to disagree on other issues - contraception for instance.
“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
Pete
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09-05-17 09:43 AM - Post#1703741    


    In response to foolish

  • foolish Said:
My old man told me that Vatican II decided that condoms were ok. And my HS Guidance office had a bowl on the desk of the secretary..... but apparently no such allowance was ever made.... which brings me to a point that I have a fair bit of trouble with:

When the church started, none of the dogma (or very little of it) was dogma. Its evolved over hundreds of years. The rules are orgasm denial being amongst them. In the beginning, folks generally married soon after reaching physical maturity. I believe it is accepted that Mary was no older than 16 at the time of Jesus' birth. So abstinence and keeping your hands off yourself was a chore for couple years really, then you were hitched and banging.

Flash forward to today, the average age on marriage must be in the mid-late 20s. So to abstain and also not masturbate requires at least a decade of denial. Science tells us that this is REALLY bad for the male anatomy. Form what I've heard, to ward off cancer and keep your prostate healthy, you're supposed to empty the pipes 20+ times a month. I'm sure there are doubters and anecdotal evidence that this is untrue, but this is the current direction of medical science.

I wonder what level of scientific "proof" would be required for the church to chain doctrine and set out "rules" around chaste release? It can't stand that - when danger is proven beyond doubt - that the church could continue to demand a behavior that is injurious, could it? Not to mention that damaging the reproductive system will eventually lead to less parishioners which means less $ which means less huge hats in the Vatican!!!!



How's your eye sight?
 
foolish
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09-05-17 10:09 AM - Post#1703742    


    In response to Pete

  • Pete Said:
  • foolish Said:
My old man told me that Vatican II decided that condoms were ok. And my HS Guidance office had a bowl on the desk of the secretary..... but apparently no such allowance was ever made.... which brings me to a point that I have a fair bit of trouble with:

When the church started, none of the dogma (or very little of it) was dogma. Its evolved over hundreds of years. The rules are orgasm denial being amongst them. In the beginning, folks generally married soon after reaching physical maturity. I believe it is accepted that Mary was no older than 16 at the time of Jesus' birth. So abstinence and keeping your hands off yourself was a chore for couple years really, then you were hitched and banging.

Flash forward to today, the average age on marriage must be in the mid-late 20s. So to abstain and also not masturbate requires at least a decade of denial. Science tells us that this is REALLY bad for the male anatomy. Form what I've heard, to ward off cancer and keep your prostate healthy, you're supposed to empty the pipes 20+ times a month. I'm sure there are doubters and anecdotal evidence that this is untrue, but this is the current direction of medical science.

I wonder what level of scientific "proof" would be required for the church to chain doctrine and set out "rules" around chaste release? It can't stand that - when danger is proven beyond doubt - that the church could continue to demand a behavior that is injurious, could it? Not to mention that damaging the reproductive system will eventually lead to less parishioners which means less $ which means less huge hats in the Vatican!!!!



How's your eye sight?



What? who said that? Is someone there?
 
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