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Username Post: Justifying ending DACA        (Topic#549306)
foolish
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09-05-17 04:33 PM - Post#1703760    



Please someone give me a fact-based logical reason for the ending of this program. It can't possibly be as heartless as it seems.
 
PuckRogue
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09-05-17 04:52 PM - Post#1703762    


    In response to foolish

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/im migration/...

Not my opinion, because I haven't taken the time to inform myself enough to have one, but here's someone else's reasons.

Word from honest news sources is that Trump will do away with DACA, which is just a shitty piece of stop-gap legislation, and had told Congress to work up something that actually works. That's certainly not how #fakenews is reporting it.

-PR


 
foolish
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09-05-17 05:32 PM - Post#1703764    


    In response to PuckRogue

  • PuckRogue Said:
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/im migration/...

Not my opinion, because I haven't taken the time to inform myself enough to have one, but here's someone else's reasons.

Word from honest news sources is that Trump will do away with DACA, which is just a shitty piece of stop-gap legislation, and had told Congress to work up something that actually works. That's certainly not how #fakenews is reporting it.

-PR



After I started the thread I read that too. I feel less shitty about this after reading that the gov has punted on this 30 times (or 24 or whatever). So DJT makes this stand, and basically gives Congress 6 months to fix this before we start sending fed into middle schools to chuck out kids.... I can live with this to an extent.... wish I had some faith in Congress.
 
Kanrok
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09-05-17 06:50 PM - Post#1703766    


    In response to foolish

I am generally in favor of a DACA-type program.

What Obama did was extra-constitutional. I believe that he agreed that what he did by issuing that order was not legal. Separation of powers and all that. It was probably 80% political for Obama. I hold open the possibility that he really does care for people.

I would say that what Trump is doing is 100% political. There appear to be two reasons he is doing this. One, he is keeping a political promise. Two, he is turning up the heat on republicans, especially those who have an election to win in 2018.

He is making them show their cards. Actually quite impressive.

This kind of law is supposed to be debated and either passed or not by Congress.

At the end of the day, there will probably be a compromise bill.
“The greatest thing we can do just unite and love on each other and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist.”

- K. Perry


 
Canucko29
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09-05-17 08:26 PM - Post#1703771    


    In response to foolish

  • foolish Said:
  • PuckRogue Said:
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/im migration/...

Not my opinion, because I haven't taken the time to inform myself enough to have one, but here's someone else's reasons.

Word from honest news sources is that Trump will do away with DACA, which is just a shitty piece of stop-gap legislation, and had told Congress to work up something that actually works. That's certainly not how #fakenews is reporting it.

-PR



After I started the thread I read that too. I feel less shitty about this after reading that the gov has punted on this 30 times (or 24 or whatever). So DJT makes this stand, and basically gives Congress 6 months to fix this before we start sending fed into middle schools to chuck out kids.... I can live with this to an extent.... wish I had some faith in Congress.



That was actually a very good article. Amnesty is a good idea in some respects, but the criteria has to be thought out more along the lines of strategic criteria as opposed to tugging on the heartstrings. Some of the most devastating legislation over the past century had great intentions and backwards results.

I couldn't care less what college students think on this issue, speaking to the walkouts. They have usurped my patience.


 
Badlands92
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09-05-17 09:17 PM - Post#1703773    


    In response to Canucko29

Right, Canucko. Public policy should never be formed on human emotion. That's a disaster.

According to Ben Shapiro, this will be a loss-loss for Trump & Republicans. Trump has no plans to mass deport, so his base will be upset with that inaction. Regardless, the loons on the left love this because they can virtue signal about white supremacy, rac...well, you know it by now.

According to Shapiro, Trump wants to stick this on Congress who really has no incentive to make a policy change. Therefore, Trump can shield blame from himself when nothing happens, all the while infuriating loyal Republican voters more and more and still having half the country calling him Hitler every time he chews his food.

Fun times.

Oh, and keep this in mind. The average age of a DACA recipient is 22. So, for every 12 year old child being dragged from class straight into the ovens, there's a 32 year old reaping the benefits of DACA. So, we need to keep in mind that not EVERYONE in this program is foolish's 5th grade girl with pigtails and a back-pack humming Somewhere Over the Rainbow.
The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.




Edited by Badlands92 on 09-05-17 09:18 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
HEAVYWEIGHT
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09-05-17 09:31 PM - Post#1703774    


    In response to Badlands92

Why do people flood the border from a failed country, then scream racism?


 
Baldridge
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09-06-17 05:04 AM - Post#1703777    


    In response to Badlands92

  • Badlands92 Said:
Right, Canucko. Public policy should never be formed on human emotion. That's a disaster.





Like the Muslim travel ban?....
"I can't prove any of it"-NYRfan


 
Pete
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09-06-17 09:55 AM - Post#1703780    


    In response to Baldridge

Obama was against DACA (many times) before he was for it. It was unconstitutional and supposedly temporary. Again, the U.S. government has kicked the immigration can down the road at least as far back as H.W. Bush. How many times have you heard "secure our borders first"? That's a rhetorical question, foolish.

I like this as a bargaining chip for future negotiation. I also like the notion that was raised by Liz Peek at Fox News to trade off, i.e., end birthright citizenship for some form of amnesty for these so called dreamers. Some estimates show as many as 275,000 babies born to undocumented mothers in the U.S. in 2014. Get rid of automatic citizenship for undocumented births.
 
foolish
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09-06-17 10:49 AM - Post#1703782    


    In response to Kanrok

  • Kanrok Said:


He is making them show their cards. Actually quite impressive.





I get that, I almost like it. However, he is also gambling with the lives of 800k people who live here and may not know anything or anyone about whatever country they came from.

We really just need a legit path to legal entry and eventual citizenship for folks who just want to come here and work hard. I really hope this pushes the gov to do something about that. We're seeing now (in the ag sector, in the seasonal holiday workforce) that there are a ton of jobs American's are to lazy/entitled to perform. Someone needs to do the work.

If Trump can turn this into real commonsense laws that are just anti-immigration, it will significantly change my impression of him
 
PuckRogue
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09-06-17 11:33 AM - Post#1703783    


    In response to foolish

He's gambling or he's prepping to throw the assholes in Congress under the bus? The latter would be spectacular and if he segues right into a term limit order, I'll fucking blow the guy.

-PR


 
Pete
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09-06-17 04:57 PM - Post#1703793    


    In response to foolish

  • foolish Said:
  • Kanrok Said:


He is making them show their cards. Actually quite impressive.





I get that, I almost like it. However, he is also gambling with the lives of 800k people who live here and may not know anything or anyone about whatever country they came from.

We really just need a legit path to legal entry and eventual citizenship for folks who just want to come here and work hard. I really hope this pushes the gov to do something about that. We're seeing now (in the ag sector, in the seasonal holiday workforce) that there are a ton of jobs American's are to lazy/entitled to perform. Someone needs to do the work.

If Trump can turn this into real commonsense laws that are just anti-immigration, it will significantly change my impression of him



Maybe the Ag sector and the seasonal holiday retailers should, you know, raise wages as they ought to in order to balance supply and demand as opposed to take advantage of illegal, unskilled workers.

And there are plenty of "children" in that widely reported 800K number who came here when they were already in their teens. Libs always fall for the "think about the children" narrative.
 
foolish
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09-06-17 05:07 PM - Post#1703796    


    In response to Pete

  • Pete Said:
  • foolish Said:
  • Kanrok Said:


He is making them show their cards. Actually quite impressive.





I get that, I almost like it. However, he is also gambling with the lives of 800k people who live here and may not know anything or anyone about whatever country they came from.

We really just need a legit path to legal entry and eventual citizenship for folks who just want to come here and work hard. I really hope this pushes the gov to do something about that. We're seeing now (in the ag sector, in the seasonal holiday workforce) that there are a ton of jobs American's are to lazy/entitled to perform. Someone needs to do the work.

If Trump can turn this into real commonsense laws that are just anti-immigration, it will significantly change my impression of him



Maybe the Ag sector and the seasonal holiday retailers should, you know, raise wages as they ought to in order to balance supply and demand as opposed to take advantage of illegal, unskilled workers.

And there are plenty of "children" in that widely reported 800K number who came here when they were already in their teens. Libs always fall for the "think about the children" narrative.



Supply and Demand? When you make the supply more expensive, the demand will just go to foreign options. That'll be great, right? You don't think Mexian oranges and vacations in the Dominican won't demolish the Florida citrus industry and the south beach hotels?

Or do yo want to jack up the socialism and add a bunch of tariffs or subsidies to keep America competitive when it can't be on its own?

So there were plenty of teens in the dreamers.. who gives a shit, they're still kids. And there were lots of younger-than-teen too. Why do conservatives want to dismiss the whole b/c a portion of it was close to age-of-majority?

Edited by foolish on 09-06-17 05:10 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Badlands92
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09-06-17 06:18 PM - Post#1703799    


    In response to foolish

Wasn't the prediction from the shrieking foolishes of the country that once Trump took office and illegals were too afraid to leave the house to man the crops, that we'd start to pay $7 for an orange?

According to the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, the number of dreamers who have stopped dreaming (i.e. gotten kicked off the program) due to criminal activity has seen a 30% spike this year. 2015-2016 nearly doubled. The numbers are minuscule as compared to the entire program roll call, but it supports the narrative that...

Leftists are willing to ignore negative acts, no matter how costly and heinous and detrimental to society, committed by the few in order to cheerlead the positive acts committed by the many. This is obviously why the left always points to the aspiring abortion doctor or civil rights attorney or gender studies professor as the example of all the dreamers and how they benefit this great US of A.
The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.


 
foolish
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09-06-17 06:25 PM - Post#1703802    


    In response to Badlands92

The dreamers kicked off the program are irrelevant, no? They aren't dreamers anymore. why would you mention that fact? Seems like an unrelated fact to try to imply that the dreamers are criminals which is actually not the case at all - crime equals removal from program. Seems like you're looking very hard for a narrative that supports your wish to end the program regardless of the human cost.

We haven't started paying $7/orange yet. ...... does that mean we never will? We also haven't got a wall, repealed ACA or approved a budget, yet the lack of those things doesn't make Trump a failure to the righties, does it?
 
Badlands92
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09-06-17 06:38 PM - Post#1703803    


    In response to foolish

Actually, dickhead, I go right down the middle on this one. I see both sides of the argument. I just happen to be countering your liberal Utopian angle, as usual.

If I'd wanted to come out and say they're all criminals I would have. I specifically pointed out that those kicked off the program for being criminals is a small amount.

Will you just come out and admit that you are OK with the thousands of American citizens killed every year by illegal immigrants if it means the majority of the good illegal immigrants can reap the benefits this country has to offer?

I know that objectivity is a trait not possessed by the left, but yes, the lack of wall & health care is troubling to MANY on the right. And sure, possibly paying $7 for an orange in 2036 really makes your argument.

Yah, what about their dreams? http://www.dailywire.com/news/20618/americans- kill...
The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.




Edited by Badlands92 on 09-06-17 06:56 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
foolish
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09-06-17 07:04 PM - Post#1703804    


    In response to Badlands92

Name calling? How positively trumpian!

Down the middle in this? you cold have fooled me, you pulled irrelevant shit to make it look darker and now you're posting examples of how the program failed.... and extrapolating it to thousands of murders a year.

I'm actually on board with DJT on this one. I didn't understand it at first, ut after reading about it, and PR/KR giving reasonable info on it, its clear that Trump is attempting to right something that was wrong for a long time.

....
....
... cockservative!
 
Badlands92
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09-06-17 09:18 PM - Post#1703815    


    In response to foolish

You're an irritating gnat, what can I say? How soon until you backtrack to "hehe, I'm just trolling".

Thousands of Americans are killed by illegals (not Dreamers) every year, yes. As of 2011, the US saw over 16,000 murders a year. It's estimated that 12% of murder sentences are handed down to illegals, and there alone you have almost 2000 murders. That number probably doesn't include DUI/vehicular homicides committed by illegals. So thousands is accurate.

You still haven't address my question. You are OK with those American lives lost for the greater good of the illegal population, yes?
The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.


 
Pete
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09-07-17 08:27 AM - Post#1703827    


    In response to foolish

  • foolish Said:
  • Pete Said:
  • foolish Said:
  • Kanrok Said:


He is making them show their cards. Actually quite impressive.





I get that, I almost like it. However, he is also gambling with the lives of 800k people who live here and may not know anything or anyone about whatever country they came from.

We really just need a legit path to legal entry and eventual citizenship for folks who just want to come here and work hard. I really hope this pushes the gov to do something about that. We're seeing now (in the ag sector, in the seasonal holiday workforce) that there are a ton of jobs American's are to lazy/entitled to perform. Someone needs to do the work.

If Trump can turn this into real commonsense laws that are just anti-immigration, it will significantly change my impression of him



Maybe the Ag sector and the seasonal holiday retailers should, you know, raise wages as they ought to in order to balance supply and demand as opposed to take advantage of illegal, unskilled workers.

And there are plenty of "children" in that widely reported 800K number who came here when they were already in their teens. Libs always fall for the "think about the children" narrative.



Supply and Demand? When you make the supply more expensive, the demand will just go to foreign options. That'll be great, right? You don't think Mexian oranges and vacations in the Dominican won't demolish the Florida citrus industry and the south beach hotels?

Or do yo want to jack up the socialism and add a bunch of tariffs or subsidies to keep America competitive when it can't be on its own?

So there were plenty of teens in the dreamers.. who gives a shit, they're still kids. And there were lots of younger-than-teen too. Why do conservatives want to dismiss the whole b/c a portion of it was close to age-of-majority?



2 points:

1. On the second, my point is that lefties always over dramatize legal issues with their "feelings", and it doesn't always work out so well, does it?
2. Is every dreamer an orange picker or a maid? Free markets baby! If oranges become too expensive then we'll find an alternative. If you think the tourism industry is being buoyed by the cost of labor for housekeeping, then I don't know what to tell you.

I didn't think you proggies were so status quo
 
foolish
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09-07-17 09:08 AM - Post#1703828    


    In response to Pete

  • Pete Said:

2 points:

1. On the second, my point is that lefties always over dramatize legal issues with their "feelings", and it doesn't always work out so well, does it?
2. Is every dreamer an orange picker or a maid? Free markets baby! If oranges become too expensive then we'll find an alternative. If you think the tourism industry is being buoyed by the cost of labor for housekeeping, then I don't know what to tell you.

I didn't think you proggies were so status quo




1. Don't disagree with you at all. This case is a good example. The idea of DJT ending this allowance was met with hand wringing. But if you look at the details (and Obama's own admission) its not a legal program. DJT is forcing a legalization...... or so I hope..... The lefty media is all about expulsions, but this doesn't have to be that (and I bet DJT backs down on it if congress can't get something done).

2. If the right is going to paint every illegal as a gang member, I'm going to paint them all as diligent workers. Obviously neither idea is completely true. If you're good with the free markets am too... though I fear that the America of today lacks the will to truly compete without the gov stepping in to level the playing field. Regarding tourism, there were facilities all up and down the coasts that couldn't find staff this summer. They jack wages to $25/hr, they'll find staff.... tourism is little family run restaurants and hotels too!

As for the status quo bit - I'm nowhere near as liberal as I come off here. I'm more libertarian than anything.

Edited by foolish on 09-07-17 09:13 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
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